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OutNow

(917 posts)

15. If Manning is guilty - what about the Americans who murdered civilians, ran secret torture prisons..

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:01 PM

Jun 2013

OK, let's find Bradley Manning guilty of his crimes. He clearly violated the UCMJ. Then sentence him to times served and a dishonorable discharge with no benefits. Then let's start arresting and prosecuting all the leaders of the Bush crime family who lied us into a war and approved secret prisons and torture of prisoners. Then all the black ops people, both active duty soldiers and CIA, etc. and paid mercenaries that participated in secret renditions, torture, and murder of civilians. use the UCMJ where applicable and the federal law where applicable. We can surely find gross violations of military and criminal laws. As explained so well by NaturalHigh, everybody who made it through basic training in any branch of the armed forces knows the importance of the prohibition against torture and murder of civilians.

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If Bradley Manning is guilty, he doesn't deserve sympathy. [View all] NaturalHigh Jun 2013 OP

depends on whether the alleged crime is actually a crime. following orders is not a defense nt msongs Jun 2013 #1

Disclosure of classified information... Chan790 Jun 2013 #29

Sorta like those German criminals who tried to stop Hitler. Jackpine Radical Jun 2013 #129

Yes. Some people can't understand that there is a difference between law and morality. Zorra Jun 2013 #145

+1 idwiyo Jun 2013 #205

Whistleblowers, especially security whistleblowers have the current system working against them... cascadiance Jun 2013 #211

Releasing classified diplomatic cable is a crime. n/t pnwmom Jun 2013 #32

Riiight. blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #2

Daniel Ellsberg - got off on a technicality, american hero. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #3

No chance. So many of us are like the five-year-old child that doesn't want to go to school. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #7

Official channels? atreides1 Jun 2013 #4

+1000 LuvNewcastle Jun 2013 #11

Then he should have accepted that fact, rather than stoop to breaking the goddamn law. nt Pragdem Jun 2013 #36

Your sense of morality is so admirable. /nt Marr Jun 2013 #193

There's other channels as well jeff47 Jun 2013 #68

By regulation, the Army IG must open an investigation into the allegations. Once that SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #107

A private foreign entity... Pelican Jun 2013 #151

Correct. I believe that Manning was *used* in many ways by Assange. That SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #181

And Manning could then find himself on the front lines being Tillman'nized. RC Jun 2013 #178

Pure conjecture on your part. We'll never know since he decided to release the SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #179

Yeah, and? RC Jun 2013 #186

None of the documents contained any evidence of war crimes. This may be a SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #189

I have sympathy for him, but I think he is guilty OKNancy Jun 2013 #5

I don't remember the exact details... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #8

Update from this afternoon: NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #117

MLK also knew he was committing crimes, ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #6

What do you mean by harmed? NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #10

In my view, locking someone in a cage against their will is harming them. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #14

So, you are opposed to ALL incarceration of criminals? brooklynite Jun 2013 #71

No, I am just being honest. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #158

"against their will"? Do you think any prisoner is "willingly" locked up? That doesn't make sense Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #78

Yes, prisoners are locked up agaisnt their will. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #106

So what is the takeaway here? Pelican Jun 2013 #152

I am not wise enough to know what people deserve. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #157

I think it is already fairly certain that he will get 20 years, JDPriestly Jun 2013 #159

It's so disgusting when people try to compare scum like Manning/Assange to MLK. nt Pragdem Jun 2013 #38

I am not comparing the two, I am pointing out that being a ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #105

He was very naughty. He actually thought the people in a democracy should know what their Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #9

+1 xchrom Jun 2013 #12

Serious question: NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #16

Serious answer. Avoid wars and getting involved in other countries conflicts. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #21

And Nuremberg taught us that some laws should NOT be followed. tblue Jun 2013 #55

I have to agree with you about his pre-trial confinement. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #116

Agreed. And avoid lying us into war for personal profit. KansDem Jun 2013 #58

A lot of government agencies cannot operate without secrecy. Pragdem Jun 2013 #41

But when you lie us into war for personal profit... KansDem Jun 2013 #62

the secret is there is no secret olddots Jun 2013 #69

A serious question. Have you ever been in the military or held a security clearance of any kind? SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #37

I hope no one that traitorous has any official rank of any kind. nt Pragdem Jun 2013 #42

^^^ This AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #160

He had plenty of legal options jeff47 Jun 2013 #79

but that is just it arely staircase Jun 2013 #144

+1000 RC Jun 2013 #185

Yet torturers get off free LittleBlue Jun 2013 #13

They shouldn't. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #18

If Manning is guilty - what about the Americans who murdered civilians, ran secret torture prisons.. OutNow Jun 2013 #15

I agree with almost everything in your post. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #19

Ask all the raped military women & men about "official channels". lob1 Jun 2013 #17

+1 idwiyo Jun 2013 #166

You are a good and loyal Citizen! n/t n2doc Jun 2013 #20

How sad to see such sentiments posted in a "politically liberal" blog. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #22

I spent six years in the Air Force... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #23

four years here Skittles Jun 2013 #27

No one can argue that information relating to national security doesnt need to be protected. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #28

He released the names of both foreign and military sources. Is that sensitive enough for you? SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #40

And Cheney exposed dozens of clandestine operatives and he walks free. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #46

So Manning should get a pass? Based on what exactly? SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #47

Would you sleep better if they hang him? nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #50

He should be punished according to the UCMJ. That would not include hanging. But your over the top SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #53

Over the top??? The posse has arrived and they have a rope. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #57

Manning released the names of both foreign and military sources. Some were open others SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #95

Blah, blah, blah. Cheney is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent children rhett o rick Jun 2013 #123

logical fallacies 2 & 3, strawman and appeal to emotion arely staircase Jun 2013 #131

Nice try. Some here want the worst for Manning because they rhett o rick Jun 2013 #136

again, i agree with you on the double standard - that is a legit point arely staircase Jun 2013 #141

Let's put it this way - As long as Cheney walks free, Manning should be able to also. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #54

Is there a poll showing "99%" support for Manning, or is this just more of the usual "rhettorick"? Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #83

I'd like to see that poll too. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #88

This is the problem with being an internet liberal today, you have to believe that..... Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #92

You clearly don't understand military law. (nt) SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #93

"Military Law", ah yes, the ultimate in authoritarian rule. I can see why some worship at it's rhett o rick Jun 2013 #120

What 99%? Is there a poll somewhere that shows that. (nt) SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #97

Sooner or later you will have to choose a side. And if you continue to choose the side of the rhett o rick Jun 2013 #125

That's right. Bobbie Jo Jun 2013 #173

I guess during a war you can be neutral. If that's what you choose. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #174

"hating the left" Bobbie Jo Jun 2013 #177

There are those here in DU city that are openly against the left. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #191

Who does this? Bobbie Jo Jun 2013 #194

Thanks for the heads up. You have completely mis-characterized my position, but SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #190

Maybe I made a mistake. Isnt your position on Manning the same as Sean Hannity? nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #192

My position on Manning is the same as half the people on DU and ove half the SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #195

Your post is blatant example of what R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2013 #115

My fear is that most Americans will go easily into the darkness of fascism. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #121

As long as they are kept fat, happy and entertained/anesthetized they may do exactly that. R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2013 #128

As contemptuous as I find Bradley Manning to be... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #52

I wouldn't label him as evil either. But what he did was incredibly stupid, and criminal. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #96

Yes, and yes. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #98

please tell me that you consider Cheney as evil. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #122

No. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #126

Cheney had children tortured in front of their fathers. That's evil. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #130

You either didn't read my post, or you didn't understand it. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #135

logical fallicy #1: two wrongs make a right. arely staircase Jun 2013 #124

The point is that there are two standards. One for the 1%, which apparently you subscribe, and rhett o rick Jun 2013 #127

cheney's guilt or innocence in no way determines manning's. arely staircase Jun 2013 #134

Do you recognize that we are at war? nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #138

against whom am i at war? arely staircase Jun 2013 #142

If you dont know, then I assume you think everything is fine. The poverty level is a-ok. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #146

what i am drinking is a shitty merlot arely staircase Jun 2013 #148

The 99% cant prosecute Cheney for murdering tens of thousands, yet you support the prosecution of rhett o rick Jun 2013 #149

one farce does not justify another arely staircase Jun 2013 #150

If that rationalization makes you feel better, more power to you. Manning in prison and Cheney free rhett o rick Jun 2013 #153

Actually, it does. RC Jun 2013 #196

it means they are related but in no way helps manning's case arely staircase Jun 2013 #202

So now you're are a prosecution lawyer, are ya? RC Jun 2013 #206

no just commenting on current events arely staircase Jun 2013 #209

I spent 4 years in the Marines and I disagree. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #31

In that case disregard my question in another reply. Since you were in the Marine Corps, SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #44

Cheney exposed a hundred undercover operatives and no one cared. Now you care because a Pfc rhett o rick Jun 2013 #147

Dude AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #163

If it was just Cheney maybe I could agree. But a good share of the Ruling Elite rhett o rick Jun 2013 #175

"Cheney got away with crimes similar to Manning" Matariki Jun 2013 #212

Brainwashed maybe? They want you to believe it. n-t Logical Jun 2013 #139

20 years MI retired in 2011 here AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #161

Be careful. According to some here, you are spouting RW talking points and SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #197

There are plenty of authoritarians on the left. alarimer Jun 2013 #91

Please tell me that you dont consider Obama as "on the left". nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #132

Whether he's guilty or not, he acted out of principle. One can be sympathetic leveymg Jun 2013 #24

"His motivations are essential to whether he is a whistleblower." NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #26

The UCMJ does not determine whether he was a whistleblower. I don't think he expects leniency. leveymg Jun 2013 #61

He would have been a whistle blower if he had followed the proper protocol to report the SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #109

I disagree. Whistle blowers and proper protocol don't coexist comfortably. leveymg Jun 2013 #111

Except that these principles were only mentioned after he was arrested. jeff47 Jun 2013 #72

If it is ever proved that anyone died as the result of his releases... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #76

One can simulatenously be sympathetic and also conclude geek tragedy Jun 2013 #25

"Most likely, his name would never have been known to the public. " Scuba Jun 2013 #30

Considering the fact that most of the information... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #34

The chain of command doesn't stop at one's immediate superior officer. Scuba Jun 2013 #39

I'm aware of that. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #43

You think Rummy didn't know? Scuba Jun 2013 #49

Minor problem with that jeff47 Jun 2013 #74

+1 NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #80

"The reason we should oppose war is these acts are legal in war" loyalsister Jun 2013 #94

Whatever Manning is... ljm2002 Jun 2013 #33

When someone tells me without qualifier who does or does not deserve sympathy LanternWaste Jun 2013 #35

I think he's guilty, I have sympathy for him, I think he's a hero. Iggo Jun 2013 #45

ugh, good example of authoritarianism quinnox Jun 2013 #48

He's already plead guilty to 10 of the charges... SidDithers Jun 2013 #51

EVERYONE deserves sympathy. Th1onein Jun 2013 #56

I hope he gets a reduced sentence simply because he was very confused emotionally. randome Jun 2013 #85

Personally, I find what he has done to be pretty bad. Yes, criminal. NCTraveler Jun 2013 #59

I have the impression he was immature and thoughtless BainsBane Jun 2013 #60

I agree with you that Assange is the one most morally culpable. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #64

I suspect he isn't legally culpable for publishing the documents BainsBane Jun 2013 #67

He isn't culpable. jeff47 Jun 2013 #75

Under current federal law, he had the obligation to not publish any document that he knew might SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #110

Even if he is not a U.S. citizen and didn't publish it on an American server? NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #112

"Classified" because if effed up the narrative tblue Jun 2013 #63

If Bradley Manning believes that what he did was just... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #65

And I don't understand your drive to make sure nobody sympathizes with him. bemildred Jun 2013 #66

I'm all for genuine political disagreement. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #73

Kind of like AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #165

But Manning is not trying to get away, he is not trying to avoid accountability. bemildred Jun 2013 #168

Then why do you care AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #169

I don't, I'm awake at 3:30 in the morning, expecting to get a root canal at 9:00 AM bemildred Jun 2013 #172

pv1 Manning chose not to Niceguy1 Jun 2013 #70

Because of his position, he knew the information would get nowhere, if he followed the rules. RC Jun 2013 #200

he never even tried Niceguy1 Jun 2013 #215

Manning knew that before the fact, that nothing would come of it, if he went through channels. RC Jun 2013 #216

Since he's already plead guilty to 10 of the charges, I think he may agree with you, I certainly do. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #77

I think his lawyers were hoping... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #81

Good luck with that! I think the consensus is that he won't get life, but he'll surely do 20. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #82

No, I'm pretty sure he won't get life... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #84

Ya got me. I'm not familiar with military sentencing, but NPR did a segment today with a journalist Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #86

So what procedure is in place felix_numinous Jun 2013 #87

Felix, as I understand it, something like 77,000 files were turned over by Manning. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #90

So what would you do if you witnessed Abu Graib felix_numinous Jun 2013 #99

The difference is... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #100

Maybe if he went through felix_numinous Jun 2013 #101

Thank you likewise. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #103

Just a slight correction, it was over 700k files. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #108

Wow...even worse. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #114

"The Pentagon Papers": WinkyDink Jun 2013 #89

Sieg Heil! Just following orders sir! boomer55 Jun 2013 #102

I have no sympathy for Manning tammywammy Jun 2013 #104

Exactly. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #113

It's not that simple. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2013 #118

He disclosed 700,000 files. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #119

"Heroes don't commit crimes that they believe to be for just causes..." etc, what meaningless drivel sibelian Jun 2013 #180

Emo-wrangling? NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #219

^^^This^^^. Wish I could rec your post to infinity - n/t CharlesInCharge Jun 2013 #164

many people commit crimes willingly and still deserve sympathy La Lioness Priyanka Jun 2013 #133

Sure he deserves some sympathy. But he also deserves to go to jail. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #137

Whatever else Bradley sulphurdunn Jun 2013 #140

I agree with almost everything you posted. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #143

I am Bradley Manning - Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #154

I agree 100% for what it is worth Riftaxe Jun 2013 #155

I don't think he's innocent, or a hero bhikkhu Jun 2013 #156

What a steaming pile of unadulterated horseshit. See how all the CharlesInCharge Jun 2013 #162

Do you consider a Brigadier General to be a grunt? SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #198

Oh, man, pin it all on Karpinski, why don't we? Forget about CharlesInCharge Jun 2013 #201

I guess you answered my question. Thanks. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #203

He should have complained to the very people who committed the crimes. Makes sense. idwiyo Jun 2013 #167

No crimes were committed AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #171

No crimes were committed, if you don't count the Geneva Conventions CharlesInCharge Jun 2013 #182

No matter how you frame it, some here will cling to the notion that what he did was SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #187

Torture is a crime. War of agression is a crime. I would have done exactly the same thing Bradley idwiyo Jun 2013 #199

Thanks for saying that customerserviceguy Jun 2013 #170

Official channels for exposing war crimes? You mean those same official channels for reporting rape? Dash87 Jun 2013 #176

The whole "Manning is X", "Manning is Y" narrative is sleight of hand. sibelian Jun 2013 #183

My sympathy he gets, but no way does he deserve a pardon. ucrdem Jun 2013 #184

........ marmar Jun 2013 #188

Manning deserves FREEDOM, not sympathy. RoccoR5955 Jun 2013 #204

legalize Lonnie Anderson's hair H2O Man Jun 2013 #207

Marjorie Cohn: "Manning had a legal duty to reveal the commission of war crimes.... Trillo Jun 2013 #208

He could have done that by informing the Army IG or Congress as required by regulation. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #214

Those 'official channels' were the ones committing the crimes Matariki Jun 2013 #210

Commit a crime for exposing crimes. What could be wrong with that? L0oniX Jun 2013 #213

That's your opinion. 99Forever Jun 2013 #217

Chain of command.. official channels.. RedCappedBandit Jun 2013 #218