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In reply to the discussion: If this happened under George Bush, you would be outraged. Be outraged by Barack Obama too! [View all]stevenleser
(32,886 posts)29. FISA has already been found constitutional at the US court of appeals for 2nd Circuit
http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/nat-sec/duggan.htm
4th amendment requires a warrant. Admin is getting one.
What you are saying is that it is improper for the judge involved to grant one in this situation. That is more of an issue with the judiciary than the executive at that point, isn't it?
Appeals courts and the SCOTUS address fourth amendment issues all the time http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/06/05/supreme-court-s-fourth-amendment-surprises.html . I am sure as soon as someone has standing they will appeal.
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Defendants moved to suppress the fruits of the FISA surveillance on a variety of grounds. They contended that FISA surveillance violates a target's First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendment rights because it is too broad; violates the doctrine of separation of powers because it requires the courts to decide political questions; and denies due process and equal protection to aliens. In addition, defendants contended that the requirements set forth in FISA had not been met because an insufficient basis had been provided for the issuance of the surveillance order and because the government had failed to comply with FISA's "minimization" requirements. They also contended that FISA had been improperly used simply to obtain evidence of criminal activity rather than to protect the national security. Defendants asked the court to hold an evidentiary hearing to determine these issues.
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We regard the procedures fashioned in FISA as a constitutionally adequate balancing of the individual's Fourth Amendment rights against the nation's need to obtain foreign intelligence information. The governmental concerns are detailed in the passages quoted above from Keith and the legislative history of FISA, and those concerns make reasonable the adoption of prerequisites to surveillance that are less stringent than those precedent to the issuance of a warrant for a criminal investigation. See generally United States v. Belfield, 223 U.S. App. D.C. 417, 692 F.2d 141, 148 (D.C. Cir. 1982) (examining in camera review procedures of FISA (see Part II. B. 2., infra)). Against this background, the Act requires that the FISA Judge find probable cause to believe that the target is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power, and that the place at which the electronic surveillance is to be directed is being used or is about to be used by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; and it requires him to find that the application meets the requirements of the Act. These requirements make it reasonable to dispense with a requirement that the FISA Judge find probable cause to believe that surveillance will in fact lead to the gathering of foreign intelligence information.*fn5 Further, if the target is a United States person, the Act requires the FISA Judge to determine that the executive branch's certifications pursuant to ? 1804(a)(7) are not clearly erroneous in light of the application as a whole, and to find that the application properly proposes, as required by ? 1801(h), to minimize the intrusion upon the target's privacy.
We conclude that these requirements provide an appropriate balance between the individual's interest in privacy and the government's need to obtain foreign intelligence information, and that FISA does not violate the probable cause requirement of the Fourth Amendment.
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4th amendment requires a warrant. Admin is getting one.
What you are saying is that it is improper for the judge involved to grant one in this situation. That is more of an issue with the judiciary than the executive at that point, isn't it?
Appeals courts and the SCOTUS address fourth amendment issues all the time http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/06/05/supreme-court-s-fourth-amendment-surprises.html . I am sure as soon as someone has standing they will appeal.
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If this happened under George Bush, you would be outraged. Be outraged by Barack Obama too! [View all]
LovingA2andMI
Jun 2013
OP
It started with Bush, the President is doing everything he can to try and spotlight the issue
xtraxritical
Jun 2013
#41
He said this quite plainly in a speech about a week or two ago. Try and keep up snarky.
xtraxritical
Jun 2013
#90
People, you've had since 2005 to make a stink about this, are you all trolls here?
xtraxritical
Jun 2013
#113
So you are basically saying that the government will take care of us, so go with the flow.
rhett o rick
Jun 2013
#15
This is false, Im more upset people have gotten past the outrage they SHOULDVE expressed at the time
uponit7771
Jun 2013
#3
A judge is required to approve it. Congressional review and approval every 90 days is required.
randome
Jun 2013
#13
It's not spin. I genuinely don't care if Verizon keeps records of when I use my phone.
randome
Jun 2013
#18
Your attempts at rationalization are pathetic. Regardless of how many "approve" this, it
rhett o rick
Jun 2013
#19
Is it rationalization or is it accuracy? The fourth amendment requires a warrant. Admin is getting
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#23
I'm sorry the Constitution frustrates you so. Isn't the remedy that you propose an amendment?
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#33
Well, since you admit you hate the Constitution and prefer dictatorship, I can't help you.
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#45
See below, FISA has already been found legal at the Court of Appeals level. We'll see. nt
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#31
I linked below to an actual decision by the Court of appeals for the second circuit.
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#37
Not that I appreciate being tracked, but I thought it was Bush side stepping FISA?
Blue State Bandit
Jun 2013
#14
The fact that Bush was worse doesnt lessen the violation of our freedoms this President
rhett o rick
Jun 2013
#20
Authoritarianism is very attractive to some. Big Brother will take care of you.
rhett o rick
Jun 2013
#44
But you hate the Constitution and prefer dictatorship anyway, so you should be fine with wiretapping
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#49
I'm not turning on anyone here, but with all the "isms" being thrown around...
Blue State Bandit
Jun 2013
#55
No, it was considerably worse under Bush. This is definitely incrementally better.
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#21
FISA has already been found constitutional at the US court of appeals for 2nd Circuit
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#29
The ACLU will likely be arguing first before a court of appeals... Like the 2nd Circuit. The SCOTUS
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#40
Your tantrum aside, the decision is searchable by anyone on DU. If you want to discredit yourself
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#46
And I found another case, US v Nicholson, this time the fourth circuit ruled in favor of FISA
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#53
P.S., the decision is United States v. Duggan, 743 F.2d 59 (2nd Cir. 1984) nt
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#47
See my above regarding the challenge at the 2nd circuit, but also note this part of the decision...
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#34
Rational Common-Sense Thinkers want their membership card back please.
Blue State Bandit
Jun 2013
#58
You're really desperate to push that meme, aren't you? Problem is, no one fits that description.
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#65
OK, let's look at the facts. Our government has used warrant-less wiretaps.
rhett o rick
Jun 2013
#72
Not 'now', I have been saying it would be incrementally better for six years.
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#75
Are you saying the data collection discussed in the OP is under the FISA laws?
rhett o rick
Jun 2013
#80
Yes, a FISA warrant was issued to collect this data. Greenwald's article says that outright
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#82
I'm so ready to get to the jobs bill that I can't stand it. This is just
SleeplessinSoCal
Jun 2013
#57
and all those jobs will go to 'guest workers' brought in with the immigration bill
markiv
Jun 2013
#74
As I understand it, FISA was intended to allow the Govment to spy on citizens
rhett o rick
Jun 2013
#64
I'm just surprised that some of you think it hasn't been happening since 2002. "IF" it was Bush????
blm
Jun 2013
#77
In virtually every post I have said I don't like it and am not a fan of FISA
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#86
It appears that you are labeling anyone who disagrees with your premise as
LanternWaste
Jun 2013
#81