General Discussion

moondust

(21,358 posts)

25. The problem

Reply to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:10 PM

Jun 2013

I have is that anytime a debate involves the activities of the Top Secret bureaucracy, if given enough oxygen a small spark can easily ignite a raging forest fire of public outrage even though it is very difficult, if not impossible, for the public to verify what is really going on and make an informed judgment. There may be some subtle policy nuances involved that render it all harmless, but most people can't or won't understand or take that into account.

It would be nice if we had some statistics on the proven effectiveness of these activities (return on investment) but those, too, would be open to debate for the same reasons.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that a bunch of amoral corporatists and plutocrats had casually pitched the U.S. Constitution and ordered their government servants to do whatever it takes to protect them and their interests.

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Do you support President Obama in regards to the recently disclosed NSA surveillance issue? [View all] Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 OP

He'll no I don't. Mark it a 9, dude. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #1

Without Reservation, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #2

The fact that Obama has enemies that we despise truebluegreen Jun 2013 #4

^this^ Aerows Jun 2013 #6

It Is A Zero-Sum Game, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #8

Sorry. Don't accept the premise. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #16

Whether You Accept It Or Not, Sir, Is Of No Consequence: It Is What It Is The Magistrate Jun 2013 #18

Nice words, but not useful. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #22

"Which side are you on? Tell me, which side are you on?" Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #33

A Plagiarizing Johnny-Come Lately, Fella The Magistrate Jun 2013 #37

I know the song. Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #89

Considering the aging Mr. Seeger's bacground - I have trouble imaging him singing in defense of Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #129

Qute Likely Not, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #131

What is your problem? Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #137

It's a song Florence Reese wrote for the '31 Harlan county coal strike: struggle4progress Jun 2013 #73

Lesser of two evils! Circle the wagons! Defend Obama! woo me with science Jun 2013 #47

"This Is The Best World Possible. Everything In It Is A Necessary Evil.' The Magistrate Jun 2013 #48

How proud you must be woo me with science Jun 2013 #52

One Apportions One's Effort, Sir, To the Value Of The Target The Magistrate Jun 2013 #54

And "cheap swill about 'lesser of two evils' and 'circle the wagons'" woo me with science Jun 2013 #57

You Really Do Think So, Sir? The Magistrate Jun 2013 #60

Bwah! I will use my handy translator woo me with science Jun 2013 #71

Well said derby378 Jun 2013 #100

"Whose side am I on? The Bill of Rights, that's who." woo me with science Jun 2013 #134

^^^^^THIS^^^^^ Melinda Jun 2013 #127

+1000 truebluegreen Jun 2013 #68

Very well said, I agree 100%, the focus should be on jobs, good paying jobs, and income inequality! DrewFlorida Jun 2013 #55

Some are just too damned stupid to realize this is exactly what is happening. MjolnirTime Jun 2013 #77

Lidsay Graham supports this policy, do you pause your despising of him? Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #92

Even A Blind Chicken Pecks Up A Little Corn, Sir.... The Magistrate Jun 2013 #94

Ah, but whose side are you on? Lindsay's today. Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #98

It Does Not Bother Me To Repeat Myself, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #101

I agree with your assessment and could not express it better. mulsh Jun 2013 #113

Thank you. woo me with science Jun 2013 #38

do you not see a certain point to consistency? If something would be wrong under Bush, is it not Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #10

Not One That Is Useful At Present, Sir, No The Magistrate Jun 2013 #14

I am sorry nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #17

Yes, Ma'am: I Am Partisan To The Nth Degree In This: You Got It In One The Magistrate Jun 2013 #19

Well we part company nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #20

I Expect I Will Find Strength To Bear Up Under It Somehow, Ma'am.... The Magistrate Jun 2013 #21

I know too nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #23

if the ultimate goal is to advance progress and creating a progressive party out of the Democratic Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #28

In Order To Do That, Sir, The Reactionary Elements Must First Be Balked And Neutered The Magistrate Jun 2013 #31

if we have to wait for the Reactionary Elements to be balked and neutered - we are to be waiting a Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #41

I Agree, Sir, It Is Not A Short Campaign The Magistrate Jun 2013 #43

Affectation only highlights vapidity. Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #86

+1000 woo me with science Jun 2013 #96

"Circle the Wagons!" "Lesser of Two Evils!" woo me with science Jun 2013 #61

Were you for it when Bush did it? dkf Jun 2013 #26

When You Have A Point, Ma'am, You Be Sure And Let Me Know The Magistrate Jun 2013 #29

****EXCELLENT QUESTION. THE MAGISTRATE WAS OUTRAGED WHEN BUSH DID IT****** woo me with science Jun 2013 #74

Always Good To Check Dates, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #83

And this, my friends, is the Third Way schtick. woo me with science Jun 2013 #88

Still, Sir, A Man Cannot Be Indicted For Something That Is Not a Crime The Magistrate Jun 2013 #90

There is no profit when you sell your soul. TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #32

That Is A Debatable Proposition, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #35

Thank you. Please see Post 74. woo me with science Jun 2013 #75

Well, which "side" is that? The Party that wants to surveil, or the Party that wants to surveil? WinkyDink Jun 2013 #39

I Am Willing To Repeat Myself, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #42

I always love to read your posts - always well thought out and articulate. I DO kelly1mm Jun 2013 #49

Much Appreciated, Ma'am The Magistrate Jun 2013 #51

"One should certainly examine all sides of a matter." woo me with science Jun 2013 #81

Always Good To Check Dates, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #85

What disingenuous bullshit. woo me with science Jun 2013 #93

Why On Earth Would I Do That, Sir? The Magistrate Jun 2013 #95

CIRCLE THE WAGONS! NOW! woo me with science Jun 2013 #97

So You Have No Answer To The Question, Sir... The Magistrate Jun 2013 #99

Nope, I translated the question. woo me with science Jun 2013 #104

Squid's Ink, Sir: You Have No Answer For The Question, No Safe One, Anyway The Magistrate Jun 2013 #105

Psst. woo me with science Jun 2013 #106

Again, Sir: Squid's Ink --- You Cannot Answer the Question, Not Safely, Anyway The Magistrate Jun 2013 #109

...it is still wrong. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #67

Of course it is. And "The Magistrate" woo me with science Jun 2013 #76

Wow. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #103

that makes no sense whatsoever. (also please don't ma'am me in your response. La Lioness Priyanka Jun 2013 #40

I assume your reference to "his enemies" are the terrorists of the world? rhett o rick Jun 2013 #62

If By Terrorist, Sir, You Mean The Likes Of McConnell And Beohner, The Kochs, Adelson, And Such, Yes The Magistrate Jun 2013 #64

What will you do when he is out of office? dkf Jun 2013 #110

Again, Ma'am --- When You Have A Point, You Be Sure And Let Me Know The Magistrate Jun 2013 #112

I know you support Obama. I don't know if you support these programs in perpetuity. dkf Jun 2013 #114

So, Ma'am, You Are Just Fishing, As Usual The Magistrate Jun 2013 #116

I�ve always thought however, that Obama�s legacy will be setting the table busterbrown Jun 2013 #115

I Hope You Are Right, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #117

How does this man handle all the personal hate directed at him and his family? busterbrown Jun 2013 #120

You seem to think this is about Obama. rug Jun 2013 #133

Well, his enemies are supporting him on this. Ari Fleischer eg, praised him the other night sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #145

How did one person vote Yes twice? DURHAM D Jun 2013 #3

Beat me to it. n/t cherokeeprogressive Jun 2013 #5

I wondered that, too n/t Aerows Jun 2013 #7

like most issues, Obama is on the wrong side..... bowens43 Jun 2013 #9

Definitely not. H2O Man Jun 2013 #11

What you are seeing are 3rd Way, DINO's, Blue Dogs and people who RC Jun 2013 #70

That's a really broad brush you are painting with. Skidmore Jun 2013 #82

I forgot to mention Right of Center. RC Jun 2013 #121

No, what you're missing is two-party politics is a zero-sum game. jeff47 Jun 2013 #128

I do not. nt DLevine Jun 2013 #12

k/r limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #13

Raises hand CakeGrrl Jun 2013 #24

I'm not sure how it is possible other than saying you support Obama doing something you are actually TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #44

i do believe she is admitting to cognitive dissonance. nt boilerbabe Jun 2013 #72

Did not like I when bush did it nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #15

Perfect answer! I agree! n-t Logical Jun 2013 #107

The problem moondust Jun 2013 #25

This is what we get Politicalboi Jun 2013 #27

You bet your ass I do. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #30

Wow, scary! n-t Logical Jun 2013 #108

If you support Obama you support Lindsey Graham. ForgoTheConsequence Jun 2013 #34

No. And I take DEEP OFFENSE at his "We as a society have to decide," WHEN HE TRIED TO HIDE ALL OF WinkyDink Jun 2013 #36

We made the Patriot Act possible by not preventing it. randome Jun 2013 #46

+100000000000 woo me with science Jun 2013 #119

Obama administration threatens criminal probe over disclosure of NSA surveillance of Americans. woo me with science Jun 2013 #132

Not only do I not support him on this I think that this and extrajudicial killing of US citizens.... 1-Old-Man Jun 2013 #45

Ladies and gentlemen... I give you the inevitable (now weekly) DU call for impeachment!!!11 tridim Jun 2013 #56

To Tell You the Truth, On the Road Jun 2013 #50

I wonder how many perpetually poutraged DU'ers will datamine this poll for their ignore list? tridim Jun 2013 #53

Approximately a shit-ton of 'em... Iggo Jun 2013 #66

Frankly, all pre-processed instant hysteria aside, it's very difficult struggle4progress Jun 2013 #58

"pre-processed instant hysteria"? FU. WinkyDink Jun 2013 #69

The FISA courts have been around since 1978; and it's been settled law since the 1979 SCOTUS ruling struggle4progress Jun 2013 #79

Thanks for the history lesson and the perspective! randome Jun 2013 #87

Thank you... busterbrown Jun 2013 #122

What an educational post. I didn't expect much from this thread so it's appreciated. Number23 Jun 2013 #125

+100000 Only pre-processed for those who are able woo me with science Jun 2013 #80

"Facts first, analysis second" is a useful slogan for serious activists struggle4progress Jun 2013 #102

I always support the President PsychoBunny Jun 2013 #59

My support for the President is not an all or nothing deal. Savannahmann Jun 2013 #63

Define "support." Iggo Jun 2013 #65

There is nothing "recent" about this story. Nt deathrind Jun 2013 #78

I do not and can not support spying on this kind of mammoth scale quinnox Jun 2013 #84

Yeah, this one is being heavily astroturfed and propagandized woo me with science Jun 2013 #91

I'm not sure. I'm upset about it, but he did get a Court Order, unlike Bush. Honeycombe8 Jun 2013 #111

No, I don't. I generally support Obama, but not on this. closeupready Jun 2013 #118

No, can't on this one. Left2Tackle Jun 2013 #123

the 50 people who support this shit must ALL be online posting tonight. boilerbabe Jun 2013 #124

you noticed that too quinnox Jun 2013 #126

This one is important to them. woo me with science Jun 2013 #130

It's major 'shout down, spin-control' mode today........ marmar Jun 2013 #135

I think people are tired of arguing with them Marrah_G Jun 2013 #138

not really. seems pretty creepy. nt limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #136

What does "support President Obama" mean? Recursion Jun 2013 #139

support his policy in regards to the recent revelations about NSA surveillance program? Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #140

What is "his policy in regards to the recent revelations about NSA surveillance program"? Recursion Jun 2013 #141

my question is if people support the surveillance program that his administration is currently Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #143

I don't know what the surveillance program actually is (and neither do you or anybody else here) Recursion Jun 2013 #144

After doing the research for my show this week, changing my answer to 'Yes' stevenleser Jun 2013 #142