General Discussion

randome

(34,845 posts)

48. Can't prove a negative.

Sun Jun 9, 2013, 08:58 PM

Jun 2013

The way I see it is like this. And I have no knowledge of computer systems in use at the NSA but I'll put this in a PC frame of reference.

Say Verizon keeps all its data on a detachable hard drive. The NSA wants to search for calling patterns. Verizon can't very well only pull the numbers from the hard drive that might fit the pattern because no one has examined the data yet.

So Verizon hands over the hard drive, NSA analyzes it and pulls out only those numbers that match the pattern they are looking for.

Yes, technically, 'innocent' numbers are on the hard drive but that's just a byproduct of the Information Age -everything is stored in one place and is easily transportable.

I see much of this controversy as stemming from how we are still finding ways to cope with the fact that so much data can be stored on very miniature disks.

Big Data in Small Places.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

141 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Snowden says that he had "the authorities" to wiretap anyone -- even the President. [View all] pnwmom Jun 2013 OP

He makes some grandiose claims. His affect, coupled with the msanthrope Jun 2013 #1

They said he worked there for 3 months NightWatcher Jun 2013 #2

Well, he isn't saying he had that capability at Booz Allen Hamilton Recursion Jun 2013 #40

He's full of crap giftedgirl77 Jun 2013 #3

impossible to do something like that wouldn't send off bells a whistles. warrior1 Jun 2013 #4

That's an ironic twist, innit? OilemFirchen Jun 2013 #15

I don't see that connection. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #87

He was supposed to be in networking and the "repair" side if you will. I got the impression that he okaawhatever Jun 2013 #89

That's not true treestar Jun 2013 #5

As Manning's case has demonstrated, if you have the access, the capability is there usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #6

He says he has "the authorities." Do you believe that? n/t pnwmom Jun 2013 #9

I believe as a system administrator with 'root' access he has access to much more info than anyone usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #17

I doubt the NSA's computer systems are anything like the ones you or I use. randome Jun 2013 #10

Then they would have a lot of trouble finding people to run them usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #16

You would be surprised then AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #50

All Manning's case proves maxrandb Jun 2013 #19

is that seemingly low level worker bees can have access to a lot of data usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #26

That's a big if Major Nikon Jun 2013 #79

no it isn't, root is root, and traditionally, sysadmins have root usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #105

I work in a high security environment Major Nikon Jun 2013 #111

if there is only 1 root password for your entire outfit usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #114

I didn't wonder about it at all Major Nikon Jun 2013 #124

I'd say you would be wrong usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #126

He's not credible...without going into details.. HipChick Jun 2013 #7

I agree Major Nikon Jun 2013 #90

That's taken out of context. woo me with science Jun 2013 #8

Sounds like he contradicts himself in short order. randome Jun 2013 #11

No. woo me with science Jun 2013 #12

If that's true... Major Nikon Jun 2013 #95

Do you believe that Snowden himself "had the authorities" to wiretap the President? n/t pnwmom Jun 2013 #13

I have no reason not to, woo me with science Jun 2013 #20

Other than the fact that only non-Americans are targeted...sure. randome Jun 2013 #22

Ssh. that's a secret. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #28

Where is the evidence Americans weren't being targeted? morningfog Jun 2013 #38

Can't prove a negative. randome Jun 2013 #48

Clearly, we need more leaks. I mean that in all seriousness. morningfog Jun 2013 #49

Don't be disingenuous. woo me with science Jun 2013 #46

How would you search for calling patterns without looking at all the numbers? randome Jun 2013 #56

You looooooves you some police state; we get it already. woo me with science Jun 2013 #82

The truth is buried in the ellipsis. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #18

+1 woo me with science Jun 2013 #21

Nothing material has changed with the extra words...and I still think he's FOS uponit7771 Jun 2013 #23

Ah, the OP embellished the grammatical error. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #24

This message was self-deleted by its author woo me with science Jun 2013 #32

No the OP cited a bowdlerized quote. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #34

Oh shite maybe we should send him to grammar school prison malaise Jun 2013 #14

You really should self delete because he didn't say that. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #25

Do you believe that HE himself had "the authorities" to wiretap Obama? n/t pnwmom Jun 2013 #30

If that is what this post is about, then you should edit the OP and substitute the correct quote. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #31

I did. Thanks for pointing this out. n/t pnwmom Jun 2013 #33

I guess, in some quarters. Half-assed is like a glass half full. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #36

I was juror 1 AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #54

Thanks! Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #75

Were Greenwald and Wapo used by a fruitcake saying "cool computer stuff?" gulliver Jun 2013 #27

This kid is looking like a total goofball BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #88

I consider Mr. Marshall to be very objective even when it concerns his chosen profession. randome Jun 2013 #96

China? Communist? Nominally, maybe. aquart Jun 2013 #118

thank you for the link, BG.. Cha Jun 2013 #137

What is that condition with symptoms of grandiosity flamingdem Jun 2013 #29

Actually he said there is the capability, since it is ALL being recorded, all he needed was an email usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #35

He said he had "the authorities" -- not just the capability. n/t pnwmom Jun 2013 #37

Yep, as a system administrator, he had the authority (e.g. capability, access) to read anyones email usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #41

If he had the authorities to gain access to anyone else's personal email Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #42

Basically, all he needs is to email for permission from his boss, and he just does it. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #43

And you don't think the President is protected from random analysts pnwmom Jun 2013 #47

No, he is not protected..... AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #52

This message was self-deleted by its author Recursion Jun 2013 #57

I'm presuming the President's real communications are on secret, encrypted systems... backscatter712 Jun 2013 #59

Sorry, don't buy it. I administer sendmail clusters Recursion Jun 2013 #60

Why do you assume the President would use an open source email program? pnwmom Jun 2013 #62

I don't AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #64

actually, he didn't need to email anyone, he just needed the email address of the target usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #58

And he couldn't just, you know, TELL someone about that? Talk to his supervisor, maybe? randome Jun 2013 #39

He did. Nothing was changed. You Should watch the video interview with him... usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #44

I keep trying to but, honestly, it's a 12 minute love fest between Glenn and Snowden. randome Jun 2013 #61

Mischaracterization of the interview, check the 1:00 mark of the video usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #101

Okay, at about 1:37, he says "...when you talk to people about them..." randome Jun 2013 #110

Right, he says that he repeatedly brought these issues up, and he was repeatedly dismissed usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #112

His supervisor already knows that they have the capability to tap Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #45

What makes you think his supervisor knows this? randome Jun 2013 #66

You honestly don't think that the supervisors don't understand the capabilities? Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #72

I don't think HE has the access he claims. randome Jun 2013 #83

Why would he talk to his supervisor about capabilities that are features not bugs? Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #91

If it was as easy as he says, we would be inundated with blackmail schemes! randome Jun 2013 #102

Everyone didn't and he clearly states that. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #104

Ain't a big enough database in the world for that to simply be a query Recursion Jun 2013 #51

well he and manning did have access to classified data, otherwise we would not be talking about them usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #53

We have no idea what access Snowden had, other than a powerpoint describing the system Recursion Jun 2013 #55

If he worked for Booz Allen here AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #65

So where is everybody else's access to this alleged instant tracking of the President's emails? Recursion Jun 2013 #70

Are we talking about Kunia? AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #74

Oh, I missed the "here" Recursion Jun 2013 #76

Ok, no worries AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #80

He had access to some data, but he could be exaggerating about the extent pnwmom Jun 2013 #63

Please read AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #69

You're not arguing from fact. pnwmom Jun 2013 #121

It's the NSA. They throw 20 billion dollar sums around casually building new supercomputer centers. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #68

It's getting the data to the NSA, and searching it, that's the problem, not storage Recursion Jun 2013 #71

I presume you heard about the NSA's wiretap equipment installed at phone company switching centers. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #77

So they've got buried cables from Ft. Meade to every major datacenter in the country? Recursion Jun 2013 #85

Dedicated encrypted lines aren't especially far-fetched. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #92

second copy at a peering point, you never see it. straightforward. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #78

Not straightforward at all. OK, so you're leeching my router and have copied a packet. Recursion Jun 2013 #86

Here DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #93

BGP doesn't help you Recursion Jun 2013 #97

You said you knew routers. I took you at your word. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #100

"When I've looked it up" Recursion Jun 2013 #107

Myth? I'll wager any amount if money you're ready to lose DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #113

What's the wager? Recursion Jun 2013 #115

I'll set up a lab network where you "own" router A and Router B. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #122

No, I won't take that. It's also not the situation. Recursion Jun 2013 #123

Speaking of complexity, since you're familiar with BGP... Recursion Jun 2013 #125

Encryption is an entirely different matter, and out of scope DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #129

Ah, a common misconception Recursion Jun 2013 #130

Yes, there obviously must be a physical layer DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #131

I'm in agreement with you there Recursion Jun 2013 #132

Just to be very clear Recursion Jun 2013 #120

Do it upstream at the telco. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #94

I am the telco (well, I was) Recursion Jun 2013 #98

Five years ago, but these buildings replicate what is done in Maryland AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #81

If the "Kid" Bradley Manning could do IT...then ANYONE CAN...That IS THE PROBLEM! KoKo Jun 2013 #67

I don't have dreams of sugar plumbs dancing in my head. I have dreams of....... wandy Jun 2013 #73

He worked for the intellegence community far longer than that. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #84

Ok. And it could have been a particular function.......... wandy Jun 2013 #106

Doubt it. moondust Jun 2013 #99

I don't, sysadmins typically have 'root' access. usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #108

"sysadmins typically have 'root' access." moondust Jun 2013 #117

that's right, the system administrator has root access to the servers under his domain, otherwise usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #119

Then surely you know about SELinux, right? The very system the NSA created... Recursion Jun 2013 #127

He might have had sudo root...and his access could have been limited with that.. HipChick Jun 2013 #138

No, I'm not talking about sudo. I'm talking about role-based accounting Recursion Jun 2013 #139

Understood...all I see so far is this guy had access to a Powerpoint HipChick Jun 2013 #140

Unless you have worked moondust Jun 2013 #128

Fishy Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2013 #103

His 15 minutes will be up when the Chinese authorities cuff him... Historic NY Jun 2013 #109

Your disingenuous smears are rather sickening. Marr Jun 2013 #116

Worked for carlyle group subsidarary and tapped by winger to leak info that was already known uponit7771 Jun 2013 #133

The same applies to yours. /nt Marr Jun 2013 #136

Who cares? Union Scribe Jun 2013 #134

Because people are relying on his descriptions of PRISM that pnwmom Jun 2013 #135

K! Cha Apr 2014 #141