General Discussion

Ms. Toad

(38,890 posts)

164. Proable cause means

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:28 AM

Jun 2013

information sufficient to warrant a prudent person's belief that the evidence of a crime or contraband would be found with respect to the person's information being sought. It is not a general suspicion that if the FBI was permitted to gather a bunch of data on a bunch of people (most of whom are innocent) that maybe someday they might find some unnamed person who may have done something wrong.

How do you believe that the FBI met that standard against each person for whom data was ordered to be turned over - given that what was ordered was not logging the data from a specific person - but all calls within the United States or between the United States and another country.

Probable cause cannot constitutionally be established to support a general fishing expedition - which is what this was.

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Wow! Look at how "hysterical" and "poutraged" all of DU USED to be... [View all] Bonobo Jun 2013 OP

Bush was engaged in warrantless wiretapping. pnwmom Jun 2013 #1

Yes, they changed the law to allow it. Bonobo Jun 2013 #2

No, the new law doesn't allowing warrantless wiretapping. pnwmom Jun 2013 #4

Wiretapping laws Bonobo Jun 2013 #11

No data has been stolen and it's within the law that Congress passed. pnwmom Jun 2013 #12

Ah yes, congress. Bonobo Jun 2013 #14

She's correct though. Skidmore Jun 2013 #42

^^ this is soooo true ^^ LaydeeBug Jun 2013 #64

+ a million. It is very telling the people who become infuriated when they are told to direct their Number23 Jun 2013 #111

Some members of Congress expressed their disgust with JDPriestly Jun 2013 #155

Indeed. cui bono Jun 2013 #168

What a lot of DUers are overlooking is that this kind of JDPriestly Jun 2013 #151

Dirty tricks in politics didn't originate with the digital age. Skidmore Jun 2013 #170

'IF it's a bad law'?? I thought that was decided back when it was rushed through sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #171

It was bad law when it was made. Skidmore Jun 2013 #173

Is POTUS directly responsible for the actions of the NSA? Billy Pilgrim Jun 2013 #127

It isn't within the law because it violates the Constitution JDPriestly Jun 2013 #148

FISA was changed to legalize untargeted "driftnet" warrants that allow NSA to collect everyone's leveymg Jun 2013 #33

Exactly Aerows Jun 2013 #40

When the FISA Amendment Act was passed, I think few imagined that warrants would be issued for leveymg Jun 2013 #43

Many of us who opposed the act Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #136

Same here, but I've finally accepted that the letter after the name doesn't matter, tavalon Jun 2013 #139

The letter after the name never mattered to me Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #146

Thank you for explaining this so clearly. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #156

Probable cause, tavalon Jun 2013 #138

If you don't have probable cause, you don't get a warrant. That used to be the rule. leveymg Jun 2013 #174

+1 I wish more folks here understood that. But apparently, they either don't SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #131

Actually, this also violates nearly all your rights. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #157

That's true SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #175

A little hard to do that when we aren't allowed Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #134

what difference does that make backwoodsbob Jun 2013 #100

They may change the law to make their illegal activities legal, kenny blankenship Jun 2013 #62

Bullshit apologism. woo me with science Jun 2013 #3

Oh the shame! DontTreadOnMe Jun 2013 #5

Well, that was vapid. nt woo me with science Jun 2013 #9

You need to return that avatar of Bernie Sanders. Bonobo Jun 2013 #13

I'm surprised he isn't using the "Che" avatar Art_from_Ark Jun 2013 #35

Protective coloration. n/t QC Jun 2013 #54

DU is no more unhinged than we were when Bush did this tavalon Jun 2013 #141

Collecting phone numbers doesn't constitute wiretapping. pnwmom Jun 2013 #6

I am not going to retype all this, but your argument is bullshit. woo me with science Jun 2013 #7

There's nothing in that post that contradicts what I wrote. You're making a mountain pnwmom Jun 2013 #8

An opinion piece by a Reagan appointee. woo me with science Jun 2013 #16

I can't believe anyone can defend this Aerows Jun 2013 #41

It is pretty amazing that anyone is wlling to bend themselves into a metaphorical pretzel to justify tavalon Jun 2013 #144

Thank you. woo me with science Jun 2013 #145

It may be that most of the data collected is irrelevant- Billy Pilgrim Jun 2013 #128

You are extrapolating limits which are not part of the order Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #135

Yes, and probable cause is required for the warrant, just as in any criminal case. n/t pnwmom Jun 2013 #163

Proable cause means Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #164

I'm not saying that probable cause was required for turning over phone numbers alone, pnwmom Jun 2013 #165

Hmm...how hard is a reverse lookup? Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #180

Yes, and that is the point. pnwmom Jun 2013 #181

No. You are missing the point. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #182

The "metadata" argument is misleading, and here is why: leveymg Jun 2013 #39

Thank you. woo me with science Jun 2013 #143

Telephone numbers only? tavalon Jun 2013 #142

Did you listen to the statement by the whistleblower? JDPriestly Jun 2013 #159

That pretty well sums it up tavalon Jun 2013 #140

Why not get the same judge to issue a warrant... Demo_Chris Jun 2013 #83

The law was changed to protect Bush. And Democrats were outraged over that too. NOW some sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #91

Sabrina I know we significantly AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #116

Agreed they don't even need a warrant now that has anyones name on it AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #113

It is at most comparing Jonathan to McIntosh. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #132

No we're comparing illegal apples to probably illegal warrented oranges tavalon Jun 2013 #137

I'm not going to go anti-Obama in regard to this; it would have continued regardless pacalo Jun 2013 #10

what are these higher powers? what is a 'good man'? HiPointDem Jun 2013 #15

Well, there is John. He was in the Hangover. graham4anything Jun 2013 #20

go Whirled Salaam Man! HiPointDem Jun 2013 #21

John Yoo supports this program too. neverforget Jun 2013 #93

Wall Street, corporate world, a group of independent billionaires, pacalo Jun 2013 #25

If he was a good man with good morals and sound order of priorities AgingAmerican Jun 2013 #98

"From his actions we are left to surmise he is a tool of the oligarchs." pacalo Jun 2013 #106

You might have been on vacation when the Dubya Patriot Act rage happened tavalon Jun 2013 #147

I wasn't clear, tavalon. pacalo Jun 2013 #154

I get you tavalon Jun 2013 #158

During that time I got all the news from DU & Keith Olbermann. pacalo Jun 2013 #160

Agreed, that is just scapegoating, and dishonest treestar Jun 2013 #81

It's looking to me like the IRS "scandal" was introduced as a preliminary solicitation for public pacalo Jun 2013 #86

The "IRS scandal" is an excuse to defund the IRS AgingAmerican Jun 2013 #99

That, too. pacalo Jun 2013 #104

one word graham says "Silly". graham4anything Jun 2013 #17

That's not one word. Bonobo Jun 2013 #18

the man in the gaberdine suit was a spy but I loved Mrs. Wagner Pies. Wish they were here graham4anything Jun 2013 #19

Nope - Many Had To Choose Between The Lesser of Two Evils - Just Like Every Primary Or Election cantbeserious Jun 2013 #34

I voted and received 100%of everything I ever dreamed of.The American Dream came true for me in 8/12 graham4anything Jun 2013 #44

Well We Now Know You Are Blessed - You Might Consider Some Of Us Are Not cantbeserious Jun 2013 #45

As John Lennon said twice -Material items don't matter & Money can't buy one love. Imagine. graham4anything Jun 2013 #46

If you think anyone would spend even a minute reading that dribble... Bonobo Jun 2013 #50

A full two seconds?? CokeMachine Jun 2013 #95

I rounded up. nt Bonobo Jun 2013 #117

No, no, read it. It's freaking awesome DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #118

. Dragonfli Jun 2013 #161

With things going as they are, a viable third party or a revolution tavalon Jun 2013 #149

The revolution was won in 2008. Of course, people could do what they did in Russia(USSR) graham4anything Jun 2013 #167

I was juror #2. NYC_SKP Jun 2013 #55

Funniest (and truest) jury results ever! nt Bonobo Jun 2013 #56

Should have been unanimous. Fuddnik Jun 2013 #110

Kudos to the Jury. bvar22 Jun 2013 #102

So, an impeached Prez/VP and Paul Ryan is President in 2015, that what you are saying? graham4anything Jun 2013 #22

You can't even get... awoke_in_2003 Jun 2013 #119

Ryan has wanted to replace Boehner for 2 years now. Jan. 2015, Boehner can be history graham4anything Jun 2013 #120

Well, he can wish in one hand... awoke_in_2003 Jun 2013 #122

So would you want President Cantor or Boehner then? graham4anything Jun 2013 #123

Of course I wouldn't... awoke_in_2003 Jun 2013 #125

Tell that to Gerald Ford. And not sure if you know but graham4anything Jun 2013 #166

Is there to be a special 2015 Presidential election? better start the primary campaigns now! Dragonfli Jun 2013 #162

"Nobody stands up to Dear Leader" another_liberal Jun 2013 #23

Comparing Obama to Kim Jong Un davidpdx Jun 2013 #24

The quote was from 2007 and the comparison was with Bush LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #115

As someone said on HuffPo watoos Jun 2013 #26

You are absolutely right. This is the first post to say this whole NSA thing under Obama was wrong. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #27

I think the point is that there would have been little to no dissention back during Smirk's reign Fumesucker Jun 2013 #30

Oh yeah,..the Obama/Hillary war showed real unity. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #88

Which of them was running on spying on the American people? Fumesucker Jun 2013 #89

I thought the point of the OP was DU unity. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #94

About a certain subject, the subject of spying on the American people Fumesucker Jun 2013 #96

Claiming it's nothing new isn't approving,...despite some who claim it is. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #97

I thought a leak investigation was under way? Fumesucker Jun 2013 #103

Maybe someone needs to look into THAT as well... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #105

Here we go with another boohoohoo timdog44 Jun 2013 #28

People (some at least) actually have an expectation of privacy on the Internet BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #36

Correct. timdog44 Jun 2013 #73

So you are saying that since we've lost a lot of our privacy we should concede the rest? rhett o rick Jun 2013 #48

That is what they are saying and what they want us to believe. Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #59

I am not saying to sit down and shut up. timdog44 Jun 2013 #74

"From what I understand it is calls from here to overseas that are not really being monitored, rhett o rick Jun 2013 #78

Again I can only say, timdog44 Jun 2013 #79

And I say, "Trust but verify", but never have "faith". rhett o rick Jun 2013 #84

Trust but verify. Better. timdog44 Jun 2013 #85

Faith and belief played a large part in my being swept up in 2008 tavalon Jun 2013 #150

No one seems to question where the NSA data is coming from Generic Brad Jun 2013 #52

We are definitely crossing into timdog44 Jun 2013 #75

Two wrongs don't make a right. Billy Pilgrim Jun 2013 #129

What an asinine comment. Daniel537 Jun 2013 #176

Oh hey Pavulon was in that thread Ash_F Jun 2013 #29

Historic Thread Sognefjord Jun 2013 #169

warrantless was the part I was outraged about. DCBob Jun 2013 #31

So a piece of paper signed by a judge for everyone meets your muster? TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #107

FU to you too. DCBob Jun 2013 #108

I didn't say fuck you, Bob. I said get the fuck out of here with your bullshit warrant for all. TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #183

du rec. xchrom Jun 2013 #32

What they will find in all the data SCVDem Jun 2013 #37

I still am grateful to the EFF. Solly Mack Jun 2013 #38

Not only are we counted on to go back to bed,to go back to sleep Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #47

Oh does your pony have butthurt? Awww... MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #49

Hitler, Big Brother, and Kim Jong Il all rolled into one. Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #51

Ahem, those were references to Bush. nt Bonobo Jun 2013 #58

In 2007 they were references to Bush. You changed the context and wondered where the outrage is. Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #65

You are over-reading and missing the point. Bonobo Jun 2013 #66

"I cannot help it if you have poor reading skills" Oop. Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #68

Make yourself a sandwich, drink a glass of milk... Bonobo Jun 2013 #69

Thanks! Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #70

Marvin! Look out!!!! opiate69 Jun 2013 #87

+1 Bonobo Jun 2013 #114

So many quotable characters in that flick... opiate69 Jun 2013 #121

Thing is, Bonobo, all of us who've been here a long time, you included tavalon Jun 2013 #152

"...Big Brother and Hitler wrapped into one..." randome Jun 2013 #53

Ummm, those were references to Bush. nt Bonobo Jun 2013 #57

Whoops. My apologies. randome Jun 2013 #71

Thank you. Quite forgiven. nt Bonobo Jun 2013 #72

Yeah !! besides HST allowing the CIA to be formed orpupilofnature57 Jun 2013 #60

I wish I had thew time to research the archives and show how NOT new all this news is. Coyotl Jun 2013 #61

Yeah, we totally get that. Bonobo Jun 2013 #63

Because ProSense Jun 2013 #67

You don't need to re-educate us. We were angry then and we're angry now tavalon Jun 2013 #153

But it's okay if a Democrat does it!!!!!! 111111!!! Apophis Jun 2013 #76

No, it is O.K. now because it is legal now. That does not mean we have to like it any more Coyotl Jun 2013 #178

Yes, everything they're doing fredamae Jun 2013 #77

Continuing with the myth that electing a different President changes the entire laws and government treestar Jun 2013 #80

We are left with nothing but outrage. Savannahmann Jun 2013 #90

I find this post ironic treestar Jun 2013 #92

K&R forestpath Jun 2013 #82

Yep. That's when DU members believed in civil liberties instead of "Father Knows Best". Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #101

Yeah. Billy Pilgrim Jun 2013 #130

This post is great for a debate on the 3RD Grade Level maxrandb Jun 2013 #109

That's still 4 grade levels higher than what passes for debate in Congress. hobbit709 Jun 2013 #112

Best post about this whole smear campaign graham4anything Jun 2013 #124

Lol, another buffoon who buys into the "Dems are automatically good" rubbish. Daniel537 Jun 2013 #177

You forget a very important point maxrandb Jun 2013 #179

Haha! Apples and oranges, but have fun! nt babylonsister Jun 2013 #126

"poutrage" is an obvious right wing think tank term. We should not repeat it. grahamhgreen Jun 2013 #133

the Groupies are prone to its usage too Skittles Jun 2013 #172