General Discussion

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)

240. Not sure that 'spying' is the right word ... nor is 'spying' mentioned in the Constitution, so ...

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:06 PM

Jun 2013

Personally, I'm going to wait to freak out about this meta-data collection until such time as I find that actual rights of individuals are being violated ... like, people been swept up and arrested.

And I hate to bring it up yet again, but there is a very real and valid question as to whether gathering all our telephone call meta-data (without any attachment to 'who' is making the calls) actually constitutes 'spying on all of us'.

Obviously, 'telephone meta-data without personally identifying info' is not mentioned specifically in the Constitution, so there is a legit question as to whether collecting this data is actually 'spying' and whether it's really 'unconstitutional' per the 4th.

AFAIK there's been no legislation passed, and no court cases that decided the matter. There's a possibly valid case to be made that this data does not 'belong to us', but rather, it belongs to the carrier, therefore, our 'rights' are not being violated.

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Don't entertain this garbage. [View all] woo me with science Jun 2013 OP

You know, some folks are that ignorant nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #1

Known terrorists with US phone books starts calling random or not so random numbers ...what happens? L0oniX Jun 2013 #220

Very, very, well said. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #2

Pathetic. You use the word "spy" but fail utterly to define exactly what has happened and what is KittyWampus Jun 2013 #3

many have an agenda JI7 Jun 2013 #4

Why is the Left so prone to ratfucking? KittyWampus Jun 2013 #6

... woo me with science Jun 2013 #9

LOL Skittles Jun 2013 #11

And yet the OP is basically meaningless. It's telling how some love throwing the word "spy" around KittyWampus Jun 2013 #13

your reaction is WAY more telling Skittles Jun 2013 #24

*PLONK* backscatter712 Jun 2013 #43

You're missing the point - GoneOffShore Jun 2013 #249

Very telling response. Hmm. GoneFishin Jun 2013 #173

No one loves claiming "ratfucking" more than DirkGently Jun 2013 #255

So the hell with any chance mercymechap Jun 2013 #34

*PLONK* backscatter712 Jun 2013 #45

Yeah, that's fine with me - mercymechap Jun 2013 #63

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOUR PHONE CONVERSATIONS ARE BORING!!!!! Skittles Jun 2013 #148

BS Cheviteau Jun 2013 #197

Hmmm... TommyCelt Jun 2013 #208

And what prompts you think that mercymechap Jun 2013 #304

Because they can... TommyCelt Jun 2013 #327

you know that was satire, right? Skittles Jun 2013 #247

Wow, that's mature. Skidmore Jun 2013 #264

... SammyWinstonJack Jun 2013 #49

Until it happense to be used against you Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #59

Boy, I thought the only paranoid people mercymechap Jun 2013 #69

Yes - fixate on the details Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #85

The chances of the FBI/CIA mercymechap Jun 2013 #94

I'm sure you felt the government was just as benevolent Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #110

We didn't agree about the ACA, but we certainly agree about truedelphi Jun 2013 #295

We didn't agree about the ACA but we seem to be in agreement over truedelphi Jun 2013 #298

If Jeb Bush or even Glenn Beck (Horrors) were to mercymechap Jun 2013 #305

You are very naive. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #308

I'm not naive, I'm just not as mercymechap Jun 2013 #309

I am completely aware of all of that. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #310

You may think that you are making choices mercymechap Jun 2013 #319

Actually - Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #323

Glad you like the new flavor of the day Kool-Aid because it's obvious snappyturtle Jun 2013 #128

So you think that pre-paid phones can't be traced? mercymechap Jun 2013 #312

Well, if it doesn't affect you then it must be fine. progressoid Jun 2013 #175

Oh, but because your panties are all mercymechap Jun 2013 #306

The point... progressoid Jun 2013 #324

We have had DHS for over ten years... Half-Century Man Jun 2013 #213

Nice one! truedelphi Jun 2013 #300

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2013 #154

That's a chimera. sibelian Jun 2013 #171

correct. delrem Jun 2013 #292

stupid post HiPointDem Jun 2013 #198

Then debate it, mercymechap Jun 2013 #313

debating it would only elevate it to an importance above its stupidity. HiPointDem Jun 2013 #315

Which is your way of mercymechap Jun 2013 #317

I don't have anything to hide... TommyCelt Jun 2013 #210

The question is what do THEY have to hide. sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #302

And that is what they have mercymechap Jun 2013 #314

No...not nearly enough oversight to make sure that's what the "have" to do TommyCelt Jun 2013 #326

They have no right to surveil en masse in the first place. woo me with science Jun 2013 #331

You obviously have forgotten that slippery slopes get slipperier and steeper GoneOffShore Jun 2013 #250

Do you have any solid info Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #72

It is not a non-sequitor Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #99

Our system of justice Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #108

You could try reading the post again. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #121

... Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #129

Because the impact of collecting one kind of data about who you are associating with Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #134

I can understand why you mercymechap Jun 2013 #321

Really? Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #325

So... TommyCelt Jun 2013 #212

Exactly! mercymechap Jun 2013 #316

You deserve neither liberty nor security. n/t cui bono Jun 2013 #131

Sort of the way the PATRIOT Act has been used against "dangerous terrorists", right? Warren DeMontague Jun 2013 #141

To have it in case a terrorist's phone happens to have access your number. freedom fighter jh Jun 2013 #156

Well, collecting just the numbers of mercymechap Jun 2013 #322

Just because Dorian Gray Jun 2013 #157

You mean the way they caught the Boston Bombers? After the fact? After warnings from other Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #176

And how about this evidence - officials from at least THREE SEPARATE NATIONS truedelphi Jun 2013 #297

Yeah, that's the ticket!! reusrename Jun 2013 #218

See here is the thing Horse with no Name Jun 2013 #258

I feel like crying. sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #301

i don't believe some of them are the left JI7 Jun 2013 #12

Exactly! (nt) Control-Z Jun 2013 #20

Ask your boyfriend whatchamacallit Jun 2013 #19

? one_voice Jun 2013 #185

And why are you, the right so against the Constitution? nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #35

I'm an old fart... ReRe Jun 2013 #145

Google Nixon Charles Colson Ratfucking emulatorloo Jun 2013 #190

Thank you dear... ReRe Jun 2013 #253

Any time, my sweet friend. emulatorloo Jun 2013 #288

;-) ReRe Jun 2013 #290

Yeah. I wanna know why too? n/t FSogol Jun 2013 #158

The left wants to have the rights guaranteed in the Constitution maintained. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #261

Name someone that does not have an agenda n/t Fumesucker Jun 2013 #8

Well, the agenda on Democratic Underground would be to NOT respond to ratfucking like Pavlov's dogs KittyWampus Jun 2013 #16

Sorry, our guys in DC make it pretty easy. napoleon_in_rags Jun 2013 #25

Brilliant summer-hazz Jun 2013 #52

LOL, that's pretty much it. nt laundry_queen Jun 2013 #203

You seem to have this thing that people have been "conditioned" sibelian Jun 2013 #179

Interestingly 2naSalit Jun 2013 #271

Amen and amen to that! mercymechap Jun 2013 #27

The problem with what the NSA has and is doing is not about how much we adore PBO. me b zola Jun 2013 #66

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; ... cantbeserious Jun 2013 #151

The Constitution knows no political party. n/t Laelth Jun 2013 #165

you have an agenda HiPointDem Jun 2013 #196

If someone is tracking my phone calls, they are spying on me. If the government is doing it sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #15

Is someone tracking your phone calls? mn9driver Jun 2013 #30

Havent you been paying attention? Or are you living in a denial bubble? nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #38

I've been paying quite close attention. Thanks for asking. mn9driver Jun 2013 #62

ARE YOU BEING DELIBERATELY OBTUSE????? CAN YOU READ AT ALL???? WinkyDink Jun 2013 #183

I'm afraid that it's either that (being deliberately obtuse) or NealK Jun 2013 #242

Even the President, who would be in a position to know, nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #221

I can think of several suggestive yet innocent EmeraldCityGrl Jun 2013 #233

Were you somewhere where you couldn't read or hear the news over the past several days? sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #57

Was there news that your calls are being tracked? mn9driver Jun 2013 #65

Yes, there was actually, along with millions of other Americans. My data is my data. Unless sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #81

Your pizza orders are being tracked by the government. mn9driver Jun 2013 #127

I know, stunning isn't it? Surely you remember the agents actually admitting that this what sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #132

+++ marions ghost Jun 2013 #184

Do you actually have a link to that, sabrina!? sheshe2 Jun 2013 #254

Ah. Your pizza orders are being listened to by agents. mn9driver Jun 2013 #205

And what do you think that data is that is being collected? cui bono Jun 2013 #133

mn9driver...hate to break this to you, but... tex-wyo-dem Jun 2013 #283

comfortably numb. delrem Jun 2013 #293

Exactly. Marr Jun 2013 #36

Lol, I know, I noticed how quickly they picked up the rhetoric obviously prepared by sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #107

+1 Matariki Jun 2013 #299

... SammyWinstonJack Jun 2013 #53

"every government has the right to ... 'intelligence'." - sabrina 1 joshcryer Jun 2013 #84

Every country does have the right to 'intelligence'. What exactly is your point? As you can see, sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #98

That comment stands for itself. I am glad I was proven correct. joshcryer Jun 2013 #232

Of course it does, I already said that. Your 'gotcha' moments, while flattering to me that my words sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #234

good response. delrem Jun 2013 #294

The issue is with Congress. Skidmore Jun 2013 #160

Has the Administration asked for the law to be changed? LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #192

No one gets a pass. The President who told us this week that he 'kept Bush's policies' sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #199

Exactly. Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #46

Exactly summer-hazz Jun 2013 #71

You forgot the sarcasm tag. n/t cui bono Jun 2013 #135

And in each of those instances, dgibby Jun 2013 #265

The gov't is storing Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #266

So fucking this: dgibby Jun 2013 #272

And what has this incident to do with Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #275

OMG! dgibby Jun 2013 #278

I see. Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #279

I don't think you see what you think you see, dgibby Jun 2013 #281

What I see Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #282

They are maintaining databases with all of our communications and searches in them. Th1onein Jun 2013 #56

+1 woo me with science Jun 2013 #201

I would HOPE every American and member here would object to any government... Demo_Chris Jun 2013 #93

+100000000000 woo me with science Jun 2013 #96

Exactly. nt Demo_Chris Jun 2013 #100

Funny, my "bias" wasn't "preconceived" . . . caseymoz Jun 2013 #191

your post is pathetic & you have an agenda HiPointDem Jun 2013 #195

you're a conservative. nobody here gives a shit what you think. frylock Jun 2013 #215

Did you see this post from Reddit the other day? GoneOffShore Jun 2013 #248

! bvar22 Jun 2013 #5

I am shocked at what some DUers are posting LittleBlue Jun 2013 #7

Funny, I am NOT shocked at how many DU'ers are howling at the ringing of a ratfucking Pavlovian bell KittyWampus Jun 2013 #14

So civil rights are a Pavlovian bell? nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #17

And our Commander in Chief continually refers to them as truedelphi Jun 2013 #296

When Bush was caught spying on the American people using the telecoms to do it, did you sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #18

Why ProSense Jun 2013 #33

Why on earth then, would Congress CHANGE the law to make his unlawful behavior legal? sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #42

That is not what the law did. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #74

This message was self-deleted by its author joshcryer Jun 2013 #87

Obama voted against telecom immunity. joshcryer Jun 2013 #90

Some welcome the comfort of the security that fascism will bring. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #40

And some welcome hyperbole and propaganda. ProSense Jun 2013 #48

Even if that were true, it's a hell of a lot better than being an apologist cui bono Jun 2013 #137

And some scream louder still that all is well. sibelian Jun 2013 #172

And some live in eternal hope that fascism will rise Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #51

There is a cowardly aspect to it all. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #73

Not just cowardly Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #79

There is a cowardly aspect to being willing to give up rights for a little security. There is a sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #104

Thanks for the straw man. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #130

The Constitution is a strawman? Really? For me it is the most important sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #136

Continue having that discussion with yourself. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #138

Okay, since you asked. I notice you have nothing at all to say about the sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #142

So no denial that you view supporting the Constitution as a Straw Man argument? LiberalLovinLug Jun 2013 #245

Don't look now but fascism is already here Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #103

Oh, yes Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #113

When all the citizens' communications data is stored then we have a police state. cui bono Jun 2013 #139

That's what is frightening Dorian Gray Jun 2013 #159

Spin, plain and simple. "Pavlovian Bell!!!" ? sibelian Jun 2013 #170

you have posted variations of ratfuck upwards of 75 times over the Doctor_J Jun 2013 #267

But but It's prez O. Different 840high Jun 2013 #238

This is ProSense Jun 2013 #10

So were they targeting actual suspects or everyone who has a Verizon account? sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #21

The whistle blowers, and apparently a FISA Court found that they were unconstitutional usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #28

Here's a thought - Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #44

Sometimes a person with no supportable "side" will try to draw you into an argument. pa28 Jun 2013 #22

However, as Obama knows, there is no debate. That's just rhetoric in a speech. delrem Jun 2013 #23

party uber alles markiv Jun 2013 #26

Who can define in details what "unreasonable searches" really means? Amonester Jun 2013 #29

for example, logging every single call of every single verizon user? markiv Jun 2013 #32

and if they 'suspect' two or more violent extremist could be verizon users, but... Amonester Jun 2013 #41

'those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither' markiv Jun 2013 #47

telegraphs were not even invented when they wrote it Amonester Jun 2013 #60

'neither were violent religious extremists' markiv Jun 2013 #64

nor machine guns when they wrote the 2nd amendment burnodo Jun 2013 #149

so what? HiPointDem Jun 2013 #200

Laws should autoupdate! bobduca Jun 2013 #204

Guy Fawkes Fumesucker Jun 2013 #207

If they suspect two or more violent extremists are using a telephone, which they surely are I sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #55

Because that's not how probable cause works. JoeyT Jun 2013 #61

But they're not investigating everyone. Amonester Jun 2013 #77

When they have a warrant to retrieve your data from a private company, JoeyT Jun 2013 #91

They're looking through the 'global' haystack. Amonester Jun 2013 #95

Do not forget that the FBI were well aware of the Tsarnaevs and had been for years. Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #75

Nobody's perfect. Amonester Jun 2013 #78

What you are obviously ignoring is that all the king's illegal surveillance bullshit Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #83

They've gone 'global' now... Amonester Jun 2013 #88

Actually the case of those two guys could also be used to argue the opposite ... brett_jv Jun 2013 #239

Not sure that 'spying' is the right word ... nor is 'spying' mentioned in the Constitution, so ... brett_jv Jun 2013 #240

If you're not already marions ghost Jun 2013 #330

Then we have the Tsarnaev brothers nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #222

At the very least, it seems the person being searched has to be suspected of a crime. BlueCheese Jun 2013 #86

It's actually quite simple Abq_Sarah Jun 2013 #123

They are constitutionally only allowed a warrant if they can show probable cause. cui bono Jun 2013 #146

Hope and Change....It's..ITS A COOKBOOK!!!! markiv Jun 2013 #31

Absolutely. MuseRider Jun 2013 #37

K&R! I invite all DUers of true American blood, who love the Constitution, to use the *PLONK*. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #39

Rec AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #58

Rec this post BrotherIvan Jun 2013 #82

I've never once used the ignore feature, but whatchamacallit Jun 2013 #124

Amen! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ReRe Jun 2013 #140

I ignore them the old fashioned way, but then I'm just a ratfucker. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #143

I can't make you do anything hootinholler Jun 2013 #162

Try it peeps - it really cleans up the DU experience! Fix The Stupid Jun 2013 #166

I almost wish you WOULD post your ignore list. sibelian Jun 2013 #180

Look for the pictures of Klingons... backscatter712 Jun 2013 #182

The only people I put on ignore are assholes and shills. morningfog Jun 2013 #209

I have resisted doing this ctsnowman Jun 2013 #226

I'd like to see it Horse with no Name Jun 2013 #259

Kick and Rec! Fuddnik Jun 2013 #50

My suggestion is that those people not be responded to. Autumn Jun 2013 #54

+1! That's what the *PLONK* is for! backscatter712 Jun 2013 #70

There is really no Autumn Jun 2013 #169

I've just put 10 on Ignore... It was too huge KoKo Jun 2013 #241

Massive K&R! Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #67

You're living in the past. pnwmom Jun 2013 #68

Here: Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #76

If it has changed then you cowardly fucks need to put you big folks drawers on TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #117

* pnwmom Jun 2013 #144

One really could lift posts wholesale from woo me with science Jun 2013 #217

That LOOKS like a counter-argument... sibelian Jun 2013 #181

+1 woo me with science Jun 2013 #256

So because you "don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud" and Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #236

I wonder if these debates were reminiscent of arthritisR_US Jun 2013 #80

No, because the KGB is the successor to the NKVD nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #223

I was thinking of Germany once Hitler got into arthritisR_US Jun 2013 #224

Joseph McCarthy would strongly disagree with you. Kablooie Jun 2013 #89

Which ProSense Jun 2013 #92

Excellent! Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #97

Not garbage, flat-out propoganda! southerncrone Jun 2013 #101

It isn't just the Fourth Amendment. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #102

Excellent, important point. See this OP: woo me with science Jun 2013 #105

Thanks. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #112

Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979) - No warrant required for call metadata ProSense Jun 2013 #106

Read this Atlantic article. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #111

Actually, ProSense Jun 2013 #114

It's up to the Obama adminstration. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #116

Strange ProSense Jun 2013 #118

There is a lot to be afraid of. How could the government JDPriestly Jun 2013 #119

See this ProSense Jun 2013 #122

Did you read the court order? JDPriestly Jun 2013 #125

The notion of being an apologist for Obama just because he is a D cui bono Jun 2013 #147

Well said DissidentVoice Jun 2013 #246

He isn't a communist. He is functioning as a totalitarian. Learn the difference. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #188

Let me guess, it's the 2nd amendment too? ucrdem Jun 2013 #186

anyone who trusts private contractors G_j Jun 2013 #109

so true. nashville_brook Jun 2013 #270

If the government could spy on all of us, we'd not only have 0 unemployment, we'd need more spies. SleeplessinSoCal Jun 2013 #115

It's finally happened. You have finally succumbed to your paranoia Number23 Jun 2013 #120

We should be discussing whatever we want to discuss /nt still_one Jun 2013 #126

All I can say is they must be too young.... ReRe Jun 2013 #150

I see; greiner3 Jun 2013 #152

k/r marmar Jun 2013 #153

K & R! mia Jun 2013 #155

I don't like the data collection. savebigbird Jun 2013 #161

Then you'd better give up all those cell phone devices... Historic NY Jun 2013 #167

LOL, companies having vs. the NSA having it! Classic! n-t Logical Jun 2013 #168

Trust me-I would if I could. savebigbird Jun 2013 #252

Good idea Woo. 99Forever Jun 2013 #163

k&r for the Constitution. n/t Laelth Jun 2013 #164

OH for Fucks sake........... BrainDrain Jun 2013 #174

Thanks for putting it into perspective. kentuck Jun 2013 #177

Most Excellent Points !!! - K & R !!! WillyT Jun 2013 #178

You mean this garbage? ucrdem Jun 2013 #187

It's amazing how willing people are to be co-opted into a bad idea. DirkGently Jun 2013 #189

that sums it up nicely -- the usual suspects want compliance/support stupidicus Jun 2013 #193

kr HiPointDem Jun 2013 #194

Can the naivety. toby jo Jun 2013 #202

Yes. Turn it into a debate agent46 Jun 2013 #206

. libodem Jun 2013 #211

kick Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #214

The Bill of Rights was written before Angelonthesidelines Jun 2013 #216

Known terrorist with US phone book starts calling random or not so random numbers ...what happens? L0oniX Jun 2013 #219

If he was known, the feds can go get a fucking warrant, solely to watch what he was doing. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #225

From an over seas disposable phone? L0oniX Jun 2013 #228

Again. They can go get a warrant. It's not that hard. n/t backscatter712 Jun 2013 #229

Doesn't require a warrant. nt msanthrope Jun 2013 #263

Actually they do need a dragnet if they want to observe what said terrorist Schema Thing Jun 2013 #285

K & R ctsnowman Jun 2013 #227

Yup MissDeeds Jun 2013 #230

Willful ignorance of actual US jurisprudence is not something I'd recommend. n/t cheapdate Jun 2013 #231

Yep TakeALeftTurn Jun 2013 #235

k/rx100 840high Jun 2013 #237

KICK temmer Jun 2013 #243

Yeah, I had a long time DUer respond, "It's legal, so what's your point?" AndyA Jun 2013 #244

"unreasonable" can mean whatever the fuck the people, congress, courts, or executive interpret it yodermon Jun 2013 #251

We're all Germans now. blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #257

The whole purpose nineteen50 Jun 2013 #260

K&R Some would gladly trade the 4th amendment for a smooth talking president of forestpath Jun 2013 #262

The other brilliant ploy was having a republican enact it and then a Doctor_J Jun 2013 #268

+10000 woo me with science Jun 2013 #287

Exactly! b.durruti Jun 2013 #269

EXCELLENT sigline!!!!!! woo me with science Jun 2013 #276

damn i am glad i am not the only one who is totaly creeped out by these fucking partisan apologists. boilerbabe Jun 2013 #273

K&R'd! snot Jun 2013 #274

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jun 2013 #277

Amen to that jsr Jun 2013 #280

Damn, I wish I could rec this again! TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #284

I rec'd it for you n/t Aerows Jun 2013 #286

I took my rec away so I could rec it again. Your OP can't be rec'd enough. n/t Catherina Jun 2013 #289

rec #340. limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #291

K&R KoKo Jun 2013 #303

The Supreme Court ruled in 1979 that phone records are not protected by the 4th amendment Tx4obama Jun 2013 #307

No. woo me with science Jun 2013 #311

From your Wiki link... Tx4obama Jun 2013 #318

And you deliberately ignore the substance of the post, woo me with science Jun 2013 #320

A timely KICK! n/t Catherina Jun 2013 #328

Thanks for kicking it. woo me with science Jun 2013 #329

A timely KICK! Don't entertain the garbage! n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #332

Post removed Post removed Jun 2020 #333