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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
11. And you have to
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 05:22 PM
Jun 2013

"utterly ignorant of history, in a state of denial, dumb as grits or...mindlessness" to believe the bogus spin surrounding this leak.

People should stop pretending that Obama hasn't implemented safeguards after Bush and that the U.S. doesn't have a history of surveillance. Hell, the FISA court was implemented to prevent these very kinds of abuses.

Bush came under attack because he bypassed the FISA court and went directly to intentionally spying on Americans. Bush broke the law (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022973979).

The government has been collecting information for decades. The question has always been whether or not those activities violate the Constitution, even when they are in compliance with existing laws.

Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979) - No warrant required for call metadata
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022966764

Here is Congressional testimony on another program implemented in 1997.

Statement of The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Before the Subcommittee on the Constitution
of the Committee on the Judiciary
United States House of Representatives
The Fourth Amendment and Carnivore
July 28, 2000


The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) would like to submit comments to be included for the record regarding the Fourth Amendment and the issues raised by the FBI's Carnivore system.

<...>

The Carnivore system has received a lot of press recently, but the FBI has not been forthcoming about how the Carnivore system actually works. Civil liberties groups have often been quoted as noting that Carnivore is a "black box" leaving us to guess at its inner workings.

<...>

Second, analogizing pen register information from a traditional land-line phone system to the Internet is incorrect. The Carnivore system likely can capture content as well as numbers. Email addresses for example are personal to an individual rather than to a particular household. We don't know for sure, but it is possible that Carnivore has access to the subject line information of email messages. Subject lines are content. For example, "leaving work at 5pm today - meet me at the bus stop", contains a lot of information about travel plans of a target on a particular day. Carnivore can also track other content information such as the URLs of web sites visited. Seeing the URLs not only give routing information but content as well. For example, someone visiting www.eff.org could presumably be interested in civil liberties issues online.

<...>

Currently, there is little if any public oversight over the FBI's use of its Carnivore system. The FBI has not allowed the ISP to inspect the device, nor have any of the advocacy groups been allowed to examine it. In fact, the ACLU has had to resort to filing a FOIA request to try to get at the source code. Allowing the FBI to install and use a device such as this unchecked by any public oversight, threatens the openness we enjoy and expect in our society. Robert Corn-Revere, in his testimony, noted that his case is sealed. We can't even look to that for guidance.

- more -

http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Carnivore/20000728_eff_house_carnivore.html


FBI Still Hunting With Carnivore

By Margret Johnston, PCWorld
Oct 20, 2000 7:00 AM

The U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation is still developing its Carnivore Internet surveillance tool, according to FBI documents obtained by the Electronic Privacy Information Center through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.

<...>

EPIC filed the FOIA lawsuit after the FBI earlier this year revealed the existence of Carnivore. The lawsuit seeks the public release of all FBI records concerning Carnivore, including the source code, other technical details, and legal analyses addressing the potential privacy implications of the technology. The source code of the Carnivore system was withheld in the first batch of documents (see "Does Carnivore Eat Privacy Rights?&quot .

Carnivore has outraged not only EPIC, but also the American Civil Liberties Union and some members of Congress. The FBI has used it in at least 25 criminal and national security investigations, according to the FBI, which maintains the system is legal.

The documents in EPIC's hands also confirm that Carnivore was conceived under the name Omnivore in February 1997. It was proposed originally for a Solaris X86 computer. Omnivore was replaced by Carnivore running on a Windows NT-based computer in June 1999. Other parts of the documents include reviews of tests for performance, and recovery from attacks and crashes for both Omnivore and Carnivore. Carnivore consists of a PC running Windows and proprietary software.

- more -

http://www.pcworld.com/article/32664/article.html


After prolonged negative coverage in the press, the FBI changed the name of its system from "Carnivore" to the more benign-sounding "DCS1000." DCS is reported to stand for "Digital Collection System"; the system has the same functions as before. The Associated Press reported in mid-January 2005 that the FBI essentially abandoned the use of Carnivore in 2001, in favor of commercially available software, such as NarusInsight (a mass surveillance system).[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(software)#Controversy

Abandoned in 2001, shortly before Bush launched his illegal wiretapping program.

For the Republican opportunists, Bush actually spied on people.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022959557

HELLO WORLD! George W. Bush illegally spied on American citizens. Read all about it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022963663

Why The NSA’s Secret Online Surveillance Should Scare You
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/07/2120141/why-the-nsas-secret-online-surveillance-should-scare-you/

This whole NSA story is nothing more than recycled outrage. Glenn Greenwald didn't break shit.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022967844

What can we all agree on?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022969079

Now, the claims that the current is the "most important" or "biggest" leak in American history may have to do with the fact that it comes at a time when technology is so advanced and in the aftermath of Bush's illegal spying.

The fact remains that Edward Snowden leaked classified information on a legal program.




Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

K&R. MotherPetrie Jun 2013 #1
Maybe we should cut the government's funds and shrink government until JoePhilly Jun 2013 #2
what on earth does that have to do with my op? cali Jun 2013 #5
Well ... JoePhilly Jun 2013 #7
lol Skittles Jun 2013 #9
It was a stretch Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #109
Maybe we could, you know, oversee what these overly funded, runaway agencies are doing sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #14
Wait… so you think the Government… which the OP trashes initially, is the solution? KittyWampus Jun 2013 #51
Please tell us what you think the "solution" is. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #66
To misrepresent H2O Man Jun 2013 #23
It isn't misrepresenting because it's exactly the premise used by those who want to kill KittyWampus Jun 2013 #49
It absolutely is H2O Man Jun 2013 #58
x2 AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #155
We need a strong, capable government that is interested in JDPriestly Jun 2013 #32
That's it in a nutshell pscot Jun 2013 #76
1st step pmorlan1 Jun 2013 #97
Great Video pmorlan1 Jun 2013 #98
Melber was on fire! grasswire Jun 2013 #101
but I said nothing of the sort, genius. And you know that. cali Jun 2013 #84
Wrong Blog fjlovato Jun 2013 #144
We should limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #160
you're not leaving them any options, cali Skittles Jun 2013 #8
From what I read lately on DU, (including in this OP) we're all doomed. JoePhilly Jun 2013 #12
you need to stop with the black and white thinking Skittles Jun 2013 #15
I've read those things on DU. Multiple times. Today. JoePhilly Jun 2013 #25
I've read the leak was a Bush family conspiracy to embarass Obama DirkGently Jun 2013 #27
No, the OP is putting for the usual Libertarian position treestar Jun 2013 #118
like joe, you must be reading either the wrong OP... blackspade Jun 2013 #156
You were reading an imaginary OP treestar Jun 2013 #173
Cynicism is like most 'isms,' is subjective. blackspade Jun 2013 #174
The people didn't vote for Booz Allen or any other Private Security firm, nor did we vote for sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #18
Do you vote for every appointed official in all parts of the government? JoePhilly Jun 2013 #26
Gerrymandering usaf-vet Jun 2013 #128
True, but only effects the House. JoePhilly Jun 2013 #131
It means they have kill Democracy as we know it. usaf-vet Jun 2013 #149
Totally doomed, man BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #37
No, many of us aren't defending the indefensible. We are just sticking to FACTS. KittyWampus Jun 2013 #53
no, you are not seeing the big picture Skittles Jun 2013 #56
really, hon? what part of my op isn't factual? do tell. cali Jun 2013 #85
oh please, blind partisans never stick to facts. if the facts are wrong then you spin like a top. n boilerbabe Jun 2013 #88
+1 treestar Jun 2013 #119
Looks to me like when someone points out an iceberg that some immediately rhett o rick Jun 2013 #143
lol.....you said circle jerk. nt clarice Jun 2013 #151
And what facts would those be? blackspade Jun 2013 #158
It's just an unsubtle way of suggesting that you're a Rovian Stooge for suggesting that the Admin is leveymg Jun 2013 #60
apparently if you dare ever question the government at all you are siding with the republicans and liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #86
Government bureaucracies treestar Jun 2013 #116
I knew you'd slip up and expose yourself one day. We all know where that came from. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #68
More misguided DU "OUTRAGE"... SkyDaddy7 Jun 2013 #122
Fine, and congress authorized it, and because we are a representative government, people voted for still_one Jun 2013 #3
I don't think a lot of these folks were actually elected. reusrename Jun 2013 #64
I disagree. 2008 proves that. 2000 also proves that still_one Jun 2013 #67
I have to wonder if what Congress supposedly authorized Abq_Sarah Jun 2013 #102
Even the movie 9/11 discussed this. Now, in the movie a Congress person indicated most never read still_one Jun 2013 #139
80 billion a year for security.... mike_c Jun 2013 #4
You didn't mention one thing. david13 Jun 2013 #6
"the people" H2O Man Jun 2013 #13
Shorter version: Abq_Sarah Jun 2013 #103
This: Hissyspit Jun 2013 #20
Interesting. Both parties are moving in different directions on this. totodeinhere Jun 2013 #74
which just goes to show you how many political hacks there are posting on political websites. HiPointDem Jun 2013 #95
Yet in 2002, liberals were more supportive of liberty-restricting laws like the USA PATRIOT Act. OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #135
The people have been conditioned and lied to, that's why WHEN CRABS ROAR Jun 2013 #157
In America. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #10
+10 RC Jun 2013 #40
And you have to ProSense Jun 2013 #11
I thought President Obama was supposed to be different... YoungDemCA Jun 2013 #19
Thank you markpkessinger Jun 2013 #39
Don't you think the 2011 ruling on the Obama administration's illegal spying DirkGently Jun 2013 #24
++++ B Calm Jun 2013 #34
Smith v. Maryland was decided in 1979 before the advent of today's JDPriestly Jun 2013 #38
^^^THIS^^^ Zoeisright Jun 2013 #50
+1 uponit7771 Jun 2013 #80
There is an issue here though blackspade Jun 2013 #161
There is no "defense side" for any warrant application jberryhill Jun 2013 #16
I'm going with "mindless partisanship." The sputtering is hilarious. DirkGently Jun 2013 #17
Well said. YoungDemCA Jun 2013 #21
My biggest worry, based on our history... aquart Jun 2013 #31
You can't make a law legalizing violating the Constitution. DirkGently Jun 2013 #42
Grits aren't dumb. I like grits. Apart from that: carry on. Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2013 #22
Hey, I was going to say that! Adam-Bomb Jun 2013 #83
Uh huh. aquart Jun 2013 #28
K&R! G_j Jun 2013 #29
I'm Gonna Go With E:)... All Of The Above... WillyT Jun 2013 #30
Alot of name-calling going on on DU as of late. I don't like it. JaneyVee Jun 2013 #33
Hide the thread or ignore the poster HangOnKids Jun 2013 #41
Meh. I have zero people on ignore, and hiding threads doesn't help the insults & hyperbole. JaneyVee Jun 2013 #43
This is a rough board HangOnKids Jun 2013 #44
Ha. IDemo Jun 2013 #82
Agreed. Look at all the govt violations that were uncovered by the Church Committee decades ago. avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #35
But but but Phlem Jun 2013 #36
I love the title to your post..content as well..but the title just lays it out..thanks..nt xiamiam Jun 2013 #45
Let's just say your hypothesis is correct... d06204 Jun 2013 #46
By instilling a climate of distrust and fear of our government? blackspade Jun 2013 #162
Your opening premise= Gover Norquist's wet dream. NOW- if you'd opened w/need to cut out private KittyWampus Jun 2013 #47
what absolute horse pucky. cali Jun 2013 #146
k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t Laelth Jun 2013 #48
So how do you propose we fix that problem? DCBob Jun 2013 #52
Nothing to propose other than scrap the whole thing, and fire the gov. workers there. Amonester Jun 2013 #106
You have such a distinct turn of phrase. LWolf Jun 2013 #54
But..but..it's absolutely essential to keep the scary bogeymen, like Snowden and Manning, at bay. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #55
I can agree with this entire post, but obxhead Jun 2013 #57
I guess Al Franken is a mindless partisan OKNancy Jun 2013 #59
I'll go with my own Senator, thank you very much. And Bernie thinks it's deplorable. cali Jun 2013 #87
as will I - I stand with Bernie on this one. piratefish08 Jun 2013 #172
very well said! liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #61
What the hell, did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this afternoon or something? Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #62
Damn, you missed the whole barn. reusrename Jun 2013 #69
She does every damn day, Major Ishoutandscream2 Jun 2013 #152
that was uncalled for blackspade Jun 2013 #163
Really? You like the way she talks down to people? Ishoutandscream2 Jun 2013 #164
Other that the use of 'honey'.... blackspade Jun 2013 #167
We're all Germans now. blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #63
"And we thought we were free". nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #70
I think we're turning Japanese. OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #137
I am afraid that I cannot agree. grantcart Jun 2013 #65
It has very little to do with Al Queda and much more to do with OWS. reusrename Jun 2013 #113
When I voted libdude Jun 2013 #71
Good post, libdude. Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #110
obviously - but the public has been so deeply indoctrinated to be afraid of its own Shadow - it Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #72
Republicans shifted because they're racist upi402 Jun 2013 #78
we know that - but what is the Democrats excuse for such a dramatic change in position? Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #96
cali timdog44 Jun 2013 #73
Somewhat pertinent. timdog44 Jun 2013 #75
I don't have you on ignore RainDog Jun 2013 #81
Thanks RainDog. timdog44 Jun 2013 #100
Thanks to you, timdog44 RainDog Jun 2013 #148
yes, and it is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! upi402 Jun 2013 #77
I love Grits..they ain't Dumb...but BLAND... GOOD POST! K&R KoKo Jun 2013 #79
Damn you. Bucky Jun 2013 #117
It seems to me that older DU members are defending the indefensible Harmony Blue Jun 2013 #89
And thanks to the many youngsters who didn't vote in 2010 otohara Jun 2013 #105
I'm an "older member of DU" Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #111
Or, you have to be waiting for evidence of abuse of powers bhikkhu Jun 2013 #90
Sometimes it takes 50 years for us to learn about the abuses the government commits. liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #91
no it's not blustery or foolish. It's common sense and a knowledge of history, honey. cali Jun 2013 #92
You probably are right bhikkhu Jun 2013 #94
J. Edgar Hoover Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #112
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jun 2013 #93
You could also be someone who expects to become rich from the abuse of national security. Kablooie Jun 2013 #99
Yep, that horse left the barn a long time ago, and Donovan was not juajen Jun 2013 #104
K and R ReRe Jun 2013 #107
Amen nradisic Jun 2013 #108
it's okay when Pres. Obama does it. not Bush though - because he was evil. I read it on the DU. piratefish08 Jun 2013 #114
LOL warrant46 Jun 2013 #165
That would apply to any bureaucracy treestar Jun 2013 #115
Those in, for instance, the welfare bureaucracy, don't have the kind of power cali Jun 2013 #120
Quit calling me honey treestar Jun 2013 #121
OK. and my ability to debate is certainly far better than yours. debate requires some cali Jun 2013 #123
I can debate far better than you can treestar Jun 2013 #126
Capabilities WovenGems Jun 2013 #124
I have a question. timdog44 Jun 2013 #125
It can't find WovenGems Jun 2013 #127
It would be very hard to live "off the grid" today unless you had a lot of cash buried somewhere. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #129
And I don't know how true this is timdog44 Jun 2013 #134
Just because you dont know where he is doesnt mean the govment doesnt know. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #130
You are quite right timdog44 Jun 2013 #138
I think the problem is that technology is advancing faster than we can control. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #140
I was just thinking that and timdog44 Jun 2013 #142
Well, us little people that need loans, have to allow personal intrusion when applying for jobs Babel_17 Jun 2013 #132
The Nazis had a "court system" too. CanonRay Jun 2013 #133
FISA approve almost all because appeals courts have already ruled the President can do this. stevenleser Jun 2013 #136
I'm quite aware of that cali Jun 2013 #147
I already rec'd this but it needs a double rec Catherina Jun 2013 #141
thanks cali Jun 2013 #145
I can't dwell on how depressing it is Catherina Jun 2013 #170
Completely agree that these agencies are abusing their power. But are you saying AnnieK401 Jun 2013 #150
I guess the only sort of solution I see at this point is far greater congressional oversight cali Jun 2013 #153
Outsourced even! PuraVidaDreamin Jun 2013 #154
no outrage in 2006 w/ NO WARRANT! i call BS on the gnews media. pansypoo53219 Jun 2013 #159
Grits are not dumb. Are_grits_groceries Jun 2013 #166
And your point? What has actually happened to you as a result? Local police abuse their power ever kelliekat44 Jun 2013 #168
are you kidding? do a freakin' search and you'll quickly find a lot of outrage over police cali Jun 2013 #169
Kick & recommended. William769 Jun 2013 #171
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