General Discussion

existentialist

(2,190 posts)

124. OK but

Reply to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:51 AM

Jun 2013

in a constitutional government it should not have to come down to whether specific individuals trust those in power at any given moment. Some will, some won't, irrespective of whether the person in power deserves that trust or not.

The idea of a constitution is to provide a basic framework of controlling law that will survive, and thereby allow the country to survive, even very bad persons in power. A Constitution is not supposed to support a good government or administration so much as it is supposed to enable the country to survive a bad one.

Therefore it is a hollow defense of Obama to say that it is OK for him to have power because you trust him if the next person to hold that power is unworthy of that trust.

This is not intended as an attack on Obama; it is intended as an attack on the Patriot Act, and his adaptations thereof.

Obama is no perfect, but I have supported him. With reservations I continue to support him.

I have stated some of those reservations.

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Because President Obama is NOT evil; that is why many of us trust and defend him... [View all] Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 OP

* 99Forever Jun 2013 #1

People praise FDR, LBJ and complain that Obama should be like these presidents... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #19

But It's Not About RobinA Jun 2013 #48

I would argue that it is not the Obama supporters who make it all about Obama the man. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #62

The buck stops in the Oval Office sulphurdunn Jun 2013 #72

Come on, the original post made it specifically about the man JayhawkSD Jun 2013 #117

That's right. It was about "the man" because the post is in DIRECT response to those Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #142

Couldn't have said it better myself. Jamaal510 Jun 2013 #139

Excellent post. nt Bobbie Jo Jun 2013 #173

Well, that's not going to happen, LS.. as far as seeing the whole picture of Cha Jun 2013 #196

Take it up with the guys who wrote this: 99Forever Jun 2013 #61

"Unreasonable" searches and seizures says to me that it's not a perfect right... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #68

Already did, more than once. Have you? 99Forever Jun 2013 #81

Actually, I have. I am very active in politics. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #97

I agree with you, thanks for expressing your point of view here & the OP Voice for Peace Jun 2013 #122

When This Started RobinA Jun 2013 #166

Amazing, isn�t it � 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #195

This is a red herring. sulphurdunn Jun 2013 #64

I'm not sure which DU you're reading... Bucky Jun 2013 #82

I haven't heard it. And I've not heard any criticism of FDR either. I'm on DU daily... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #100

That's not true. caseymoz Jun 2013 #98

Actually it IS true. If I had a dollar for everytime I heard someone complain that Obama Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #99

That's not the part I was talking about. caseymoz Jun 2013 #113

your FDR claims are partisan give-aways sigmasix Jun 2013 #205

I didn't say Obama is an FDR, nor did I claim that he should be. Again, read carefully... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #212

I'm certain they would be partisan giveaways caseymoz Jun 2013 #216

So, what you're saying is that enlightenment Jun 2013 #159

No. Please read carefully. I've heard many complaints, particularly from the political left, Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #177

FDR and LBJ deserve praise & I guess I shouldn't be surprised at your citing only the negatives whathehell Jun 2013 #115

You therefore prove my point that these are good men who just happened to make bad, Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #136

I don't think so, but let's get one thing out of the way first: whathehell Jun 2013 #158

Of course every president--hell, every politician--has to deal with people who hate him. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #174

Ok, I'm glad we see eye to eye there, and I thank you whathehell Jun 2013 #184

The "hate him" charge was definitely not directed at you. I've read your posts and they are Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #193

Well, thanks so much, Liberal_Stalwart.. whathehell Jun 2013 #194

You Are Comparing RobinA Jun 2013 #169

I'm only responding to the complaints that Obama is NOT like LBJ or FDR. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #171

This message was self-deleted by its author mother earth Jun 2013 #125

I agree, and you make good points. However, I have seldom heard anyone on the left Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #134

This message was self-deleted by its author mother earth Jun 2013 #140

I wasn't born in the 60's or around then, but I do get your point. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #141

This message was self-deleted by its author mother earth Jun 2013 #144

I agree with you, but I also think we have a responsibility to hold elected officials accountable... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #152

This message was self-deleted by its author mother earth Jun 2013 #168

Yep. Yep and yep Number23 Jun 2013 #206

Then you will have no basis to complain about methods when evil again resides in the White House Fumesucker Jun 2013 #2

Maybe not. But I stand by my statement. Flame on... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #6

Oh but you will complain, bitterly Fumesucker Jun 2013 #24

You don't know me. Don't lump me into a category that you think I ought to be. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #31

I was in my twenties when Nixon was forced from office in disgrace Fumesucker Jun 2013 #105

Har, Har, Har RobinA Jun 2013 #170

Then don't elect Jeb, elect Hillary or Cory Booker or Deval Patrick or Michelle or Janet or Kathleen graham4anything Jun 2013 #11

"Hillary is a monster" -Samantha Power, Obama's designate for UN Ambassador Fumesucker Jun 2013 #25

Well, she was during the 2008 Democratic parties. When Samatha Powers called Hillary that, Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #35

During that Primay cycle, Obama employed ex gay hate preacher McClurkin as his surrogate Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #129

this is your reasoned response? burnodo Jun 2013 #3

Deal with it. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #9

why should we "deal with it"? demwing Jun 2013 #51

I'm not the one who can't deal with criticism. I started this thread. "Deal with it" Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #65

The powers you give Obama zipplewrath Jun 2013 #4

That is not the question and you know it...eom Kolesar Jun 2013 #5

Yes it is! And you know it! n-t Logical Jun 2013 #13

No, it's the answer zipplewrath Jun 2013 #133

again, there don't have to be another Bush if voters keep Jeb out. graham4anything Jun 2013 #14

A bush by any other name zipplewrath Jun 2013 #49

The election every 4 years controls the power. The voters decide. nt. graham4anything Jun 2013 #54

No, it doesn't zipplewrath Jun 2013 #57

Yes it does. The US Supreme Court decides what is or isn't. Don't like the 5 bad ones? Why graham4anything Jun 2013 #58

Establishing the precident zipplewrath Jun 2013 #132

that's why it's a mistake to call Bush and Cheney evil Enrique Jun 2013 #7

On the contrary: I haven't defended everything Obama has done. I defend him here Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #17

if you think evil is a supernatural construct demwing Jun 2013 #59

That's your opinion. Don't call names. You don't know me or anything about me. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #71

To quote you..."deal with it" /nt demwing Jun 2013 #80

Deal with what? You're not making sense. Snarky comments don't count. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #103

Your Post #65: " 'Deal with it' means that you'll have to accept opinions demwing Jun 2013 #123

I don't have any problems whatsoever with your opinions. We agree to disagree. I'm good with that. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #137

partisan politics are not good vs. evil Enrique Jun 2013 #164

So drawing a distinction between good and evil rests in the demesne of extreme ideologues? demwing Jun 2013 #165

President Roosevelt wasn't evil, yet under a lawful program, he imprisoned SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #8

LBJ wasn't evil either and yet he gave us the Gulf of Tonkin which led to the Vietnam War (conflict) Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #12

It might be lawful, but it's very wrong. As wrong as what Roosevelt and LBJ did. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #16

It might be wrong, but I need more facts first. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #18

We'll see. But I don't have a good feeling about this one. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #21

We need to find a way to get Congress to repeal the Patriot Act. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #23

Rather than repeal it wholesale, I think we should look at each provision and make SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #89

If you believe that Bush is evil then you have to also believe that LBJ was evil JW2020 Jun 2013 #33

And yet, so many on the so-called Political Left, argue that Obama should be like LBJ. Go figure... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #36

Obama may suffer a similar fate zipplewrath Jun 2013 #55

Did LBJ sanction torture? ProSense Jun 2013 #63

Guess you've never heard of the Phoenix Program. JW2020 Jun 2013 #75

It wasn't a law, it ProSense Jun 2013 #60

I didn't say it was a law, I said it was *lawful*. The executive order he issued falls SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #87

The internment of the Japanese was done for economic reasons, not military necessity. OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #175

Three Obama supporters recommend this thread , and the "non donors" Kolesar Jun 2013 #10

Of course. I expected the response. We have so many Obama hate threads... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #15

Bunch of wankers multitasking at infowars and the Ron Paul forum, I expect Kolesar Jun 2013 #20

It's the defense of Ron Paul, in particular, that scares the shit out of me. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #22

the defense of Ron Paul and the love for Greenwad, who loves Ron Paul. Whisp Jun 2013 #32

You nailed it. That's the source. freshwest Jun 2013 #209

Can you guarantee that nobody involved is evil? Savannahmann Jun 2013 #26

Call your members of Congress. Demand a repeal of the Patriot Act!!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #38

I have. Savannahmann Jun 2013 #50

I am very politically active. In fact I work for the federal government. If anyone should be worried Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #73

Obama is irrelevant. You have to alsame Jun 2013 #27

I agree with you. Obama is irrelevant. Call members of Congress. Demand a repeal of the Patriot Act! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #39

They passed it, they fund it to this day. Despite Rand Paul's circus, he didn't stop it. freshwest Jun 2013 #210

I don't trust ANY politician. There are some I distrust less than others. hobbit709 Jun 2013 #28

You make a good point. Politicians are politicians, but I definitely trust Obama more than most. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #40

This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Jun 2013 #29

Thanks. I can appreciate that. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #41

It's been a while since a decent person was in the Whitehouse. Whisp Jun 2013 #30

I agree. Carter is an amazing man. A man before his time. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #42

I don't think he's evil. I think it's stupid to overuse the word evil, however cali Jun 2013 #34

The defenders have finally dropped their pretense Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #45

I don't trust him at all Ter Jun 2013 #37

This is not about Obama. Call members of Congress. Demand a repeal of the Patriot Act!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #43

Yet, you ProSense Jun 2013 #66

Yeah, and? Ter Jun 2013 #221

Evil? lol leeroysphitz Jun 2013 #44

Call your members of Congress. Demand a repeal of the Patriot Act. It's not funny. Never was. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #46

I'd like to ask you to call my members of Congress and thank them for keeping these issues Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #167

I've done what you have suggested. For instance, I am very lucky to have two fairly progressive Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #176

Sure. I don't think Obama is evil, neither do most Democrats. Laelth Jun 2013 #47

So our failure is our poor application of circular logic. GoneFishin Jun 2013 #52

No. Your failure is ascribing supernatural powers to a human being. Your failure is failing Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #76

You don't need super powers to nominate agency heads that advocate for the people rather GoneFishin Jun 2013 #163

Yes, that is how I feel.. plus the fact that what President Obama is doing is actually legal DCBob Jun 2013 #53

Giving the Government this power does not end with Obama. You are trusting all future Presidents. dkf Jun 2013 #56

So then let's put our energy into doing something about it. First, give the president an OVERWHELMIN Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #78

Many Democrats have become part of the problem. dkf Jun 2013 #83

And that's why I emphasize that we should elect more *progressives*... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #104

It doesn't matter whether or not he is "evil". sibelian Jun 2013 #67

Agreed. That's reasonable. Let's agree, then, to stay active. Give him overwhelming majorities Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #79

I think that's an excellent idea. sibelian Jun 2013 #110

Whether Obama is evil is irrelevant. He will not be president forever. morningfog Jun 2013 #69

Agreed. And if that is so, call Congress. Demand a repeal of the Patriot Act. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #86

All that says is that you are gullible. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #70

Nah. It says that I wait for the facts before I condemn people. It says that I am reasonable. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #84

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #88

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. What are you going to do about it? Vote Third Party? Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #95

We've been working on our solution for years and it's almost ready. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #102

Ah the glorious revolution then. emulatorloo Jun 2013 #121

LOL! You couldn't be more wrong. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #126

He won't be president forever. We must stop this. nt LaydeeBug Jun 2013 #74

What a terrible defense. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #77

Your opinion. If you care about protecting your rights, call members of Congress. Demand a repeal Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #85

Of course Obama isn't evil, He's a good man. Autumn Jun 2013 #90

No, and that's why we need a Congress who will exercise oversight and reduce these Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #145

Nobody is evil. G_j Jun 2013 #91

You give the government that type of power, ... CRH Jun 2013 #92

No, WE give government that type of power. If you want to change it, call members of Congress... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #101

A clarification about why I started this thread addressing the premise of "evil vs. good" Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #93

Can you support that assertion? Got any examples of that which you see all the time for Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #135

I will take a while for me to search for that, but I guess I could do it if I had enough time. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #138

The way to clarify is to support your claims about others, claims you made and expanded Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #153

What you said, what I responded to: Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #154

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2013 #94

Now, let's all light up lame54 Jun 2013 #96

I need it right about now. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #106

Don't let Obama catch you lame54 Jun 2013 #109

You mean, don't let his Justice Department catch me. It's not always about Obama. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #143

The crackdown has been a lot harder under this pres than the last... lame54 Jun 2013 #178

Expanding the already-largest spy program in history far beyond what Bush did DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #107

See my response, #146. Demand a repeal of the Patriot Act and support Adam Schiff's bill... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #148

So, you can't possibly be duped? caseymoz Jun 2013 #108

If you're concerned, please support Adam Schiff's bill and demand that Congress Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #150

Since that's changing the subject caseymoz Jun 2013 #202

"I truly believe that the president is NOT an evil man" Great. What about the NEXT president panzerfaust Jun 2013 #111

Again, if we all care so much about this "unlimited power," then let's pressure Congress to Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #146

Obama is a prisoner of the "monster" Gman Jun 2013 #112

Then why did he go for re-Election caseymoz Jun 2013 #114

Not run and what? Gman Jun 2013 #118

So, he did it for us? So Mitt wouldn't win? caseymoz Jun 2013 #120

In a world where this is the sole issue, I guess you're right Gman Jun 2013 #181

I think I was telling you the exact thing about your view. caseymoz Jun 2013 #200

Very well could be Gman Jun 2013 #218

no only that, but the left can't say it ever got obama's back, nor that of most dem reps certainot Jun 2013 #116

Of course he's not evil. JoeyT Jun 2013 #119

I totally agree with you. Reread my OP. Thanks. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #149

OK but existentialist Jun 2013 #124

I didn't say Obama was perfect. Even if you reread my OP, I clearly state that I do not believe that Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #182

I understand existentialist Jun 2013 #189

Your argument is ridiculous - Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #127

I repeated this several times: Demand that Congress repeal the Patriot Act Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #183

that's generally called a "cult of personality...." mike_c Jun 2013 #128

tssk... ForeignandDomestic Jun 2013 #130

I've addressed your snarkiness upthread. Read if you're curious for my answer. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #151

Tssk.. ForeignandDomestic Jun 2013 #160

Tssk... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #180

You're following a fallacy. OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #131

If you insist on using faith terms I'll debate in those terms...can you? Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #147

I can't help but be surprised at Jamaal510 Jun 2013 #155

You're a bit closer to the educational system than many posting here, I suspect Jamaal. freshwest Jun 2013 #211

Haters gonna hate but I have Obama's back. hamster Jun 2013 #156

Tssk... ForeignandDomestic Jun 2013 #161

Ok.... now that was fucking funny!!! SomethingFishy Jun 2013 #172

President Obama's got this hamster Jun 2013 #188

Fine. Trust him. But do you trust the next President? Or the next? TalkingDog Jun 2013 #157

Agreed. I've explained throughout this thread. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #191

precedents and systems will be used in the future alc Jun 2013 #162

Good and evil are too simple as categories. BlueCheese Jun 2013 #179

Then, there's other things we can do. Start by supporting Adam Schiff's bill to Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #185

Part of it is drumming up public support for such a thing. BlueCheese Jun 2013 #187

It is very important for people to remember he is on our side. Rex Jun 2013 #186

Thanks. Exactly my point. We can argue that he should make better decisions... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #192

Nah. It's just that Bush was a Republican and Obama is a Democrat npk Jun 2013 #190

Yummmmy ...good Kool-aid. L0oniX Jun 2013 #197

I don't think Obama is an evil , orwellian ruler octoberlib Jun 2013 #198

Your post is well reasoned. Thank you! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #199

How do we know the next president won't be evil... HooptieWagon Jun 2013 #201

Why in hell isn't Obama doing ANYTHING to eliminate the Bush/Cheney surveillance state laws???? Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #203

sorry but that is juvenile, naive, simplistic thinking. liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #204

Your opinion. Read the entire thread for context. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #213

What get me is that some dots, in my opinion, is leading to.. Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2013 #207

And whistle blowing only works if a law has been broken. A law hasn't been broken. ;) Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #215

Yep. Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2013 #217

When someone stabs you in the back in life, you'll have noone to blame but yourself AZ Progressive Jun 2013 #208

I'll take my chances, but thanks for your concern. ;) Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #214

How can you be so sure he's not evil? limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #219

Do you trust the next president? Fearless Jun 2013 #220