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In reply to the discussion: Do you agree with John Boehner that Edward Snowden is a traitor? [View all]sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)33. Do you understand that the 4th Amendment forbids warrantless invasions of people's lives.
The 4th Amendment also requires that probable cause be established before any warrant is issued. It also requires that the warrant be obtained BEFORE the invasion happens, not after.
The current FISA Bill with the amendment which was added to get Bush off the hook for breaking the original version of it, which wasn't great to begin with, is even worse.
What probable cause was presented to collect the telephone data of millions of Americans? In what court would a prosecutor succeed in getting a blanket warrant to seize the data of millions of people and how was probable cause for each of those people established?
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
That's pretty clear. Probably cause supported by oath. When and how was this probable cause established for that many people?
These are the questions that need to be answered. If they have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide and should be able to explain what the probable cause (which means 'there is reason to believe there was some kind of wrong-doing on the part of anyone who is the target of a warrant) was that resulted in a warrant for millions of people. Unless the whole country is guilty or suspected of being guilty of something, this whole FISA mass warrant claim is nonsense.
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I think being a traitor requires mens rea. I think Snowden thought he was doing the right thing.
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#2
Looks like so far, more people view him as a hero. Republicans like Clapper, a war profiteer doesn't
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#11
A majority of People once thought the world was flat, absent objective facts otherwise.
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#12
Far more relevant to this story, a majority of people once thought Daniel Ellsberg was a traitor.
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#13
The Fact is, FISA has repeatedy been found to be Constitutional. If you like the Constitution
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#15
Lots of laws have been found to be 'constitutional' our history is replete with them. Thankfully
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#22
This is not a law. This is the Constitution. If you are talking about FISA, do you understand the
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#31
Do you understand that the 4th Amendment forbids warrantless invasions of people's lives.
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#33
Do you understand that judges interpret what the Constitution means and they do not agree with you
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#35
Show me 'several decisions' that involved a ruling against probable cause (other than the exception
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#41
Sabrina, trying to pretend a completely different situation's legal rulings apply doesn't work.
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#47
I point you again to the 4th Amendment, that is all we need to know. Our representatives take an
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#54
ellsberg faced the music and didn't seek refuge in a totalitarian state, bragging on said
arely staircase
Jun 2013
#20
Ellsberg completely disagrees with you. He sent a message to Snowden thanking him for his courage
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#34
Snowden has stated clearly that he knew the consequences of his actions. What court would he have
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#57
but he is unwilling to face the consequences of his actions, unlike ellsberg
arely staircase
Jun 2013
#59
The only consequences he should face is a public, not secret, investigation into whether or not
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#61
I think Bush and his 'security' Corps, are traitors. I am glad we have courageous people like this
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#8
Well, all war profiteers will view those who expose them as 'traitors'. But to whom?
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#10
Can't vote, because usually in situations like this, the truth is someplace in the middle. nt
Javaman
Jun 2013
#16
Saw Fox 'news" at the gym and they had the opposite view, calling Snowden a hero.
AlinPA
Jun 2013
#23
Appeals to bandwagon (Elsberg) and guilt by association (Stormfront) are two sides of the same coin
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#39
Ellsberg is a respected hero in this country. There was no need to appeal to him. His words have
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#42
Appeals to bandwagon and appeals to authority are logical fallacies for good reasons the same way
stevenleser
Jun 2013
#46
Well of course if that was the case, you might have a point. The fact is that Ellsberg agrees with
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#58
ROFL. This coming from the poster who tells us what the goons at Conservative Cave are posting...
SidDithers
Jun 2013
#40
Aw, you're so lovable when you try to play 'gotcha' and fail. But practice makes perfect and who
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#43
This is the stupidest fucking piece of shit of a poll I've seen in my life! n/t
backscatter712
Jun 2013
#36
It's a simple question. I probably would have included Ari Fleischer and Peter King
sabrina 1
Jun 2013
#60
He's a hero who loves America more than any politician that approves of mass surveillance. nt
limpyhobbler
Jun 2013
#50
Boehner is a corporatist, pushing legislation which benefits things in which he has $$$ investments.
Fire Walk With Me
Jun 2013
#51
Traitor? In the same way that Daniel Ellsberg is? Or, Ronald Ridenhour?
Tierra_y_Libertad
Jun 2013
#55
just changed my vote to yes to reflect snowden's sharing of info w/chinese
arely staircase
Jun 2013
#62