General Discussion

MineralMan

(151,269 posts)

62. There is always the assumption of this, by everyone.

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:35 PM

Jun 2013

However concrete evidence of it is rarely disseminated. If that is truly the case here, it is a security breach that goes far beyond mere whistle-blowing. Yes, everyone spies on everyone else, but information on how and where is not known. If it becomes known, the picture changes, and not for the better.

This is something not to be celebrated. Truly.

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[Snowden]...Showed Hong Kong Newspaper Documents Revealing US Hacking Attacks On China (updated 2x) [View all] ProSense Jun 2013 OP

From whistleblower to Chinese agent in one swoop. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #1

Yes. NOW he's a traitor. randome Jun 2013 #14

And DiFi. Ugh. nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #18

Now? rtracey Jun 2013 #32

We tried to give him the benefit of a doubt but clearly that was misplaced. randome Jun 2013 #63

Boner is right once in his miserable Cha Jun 2013 #112

And we'll probably have to live with it for the rest of our lives! randome Jun 2013 #114

I wouldn't go so far to say that yet. Whisp Jun 2013 #116

Agree. maddezmom Jun 2013 #24

This is the Chinese trump card to deal with US pressure on cyber security - he'll be China honored JackN415 Jun 2013 #113

Do you seriously think that the Chinese learned anything new from him? JDPriestly Jun 2013 #177

If the Chinese knew how we were doing it, we wouldn't be doing it nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #179

You could be very wrong. If the Chinese knew how we were doing it, JDPriestly Jun 2013 #187

Not on that scale. nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #191

One of the slides he already released pnwmom Jun 2013 #225

So you blame Snowden for trying to do something about the unemployment rate??? randome Jun 2013 #231

Oh is that what he's trying to do? pnwmom Jun 2013 #240

:) treestar Jun 2013 #255

+1 nt Live and Learn Jun 2013 #234

His intent is clear treestar Jun 2013 #254

His insistence on the story breaking right when Obama was meeting with the new Chinese leader MADem Jun 2013 #306

Yes. But in an interview with several whistleblowers on this JDPriestly Jun 2013 #308

As what the government is doing is legal under the Patriot Act, he was always a leaker, not Windy Jun 2013 #229

technically, perhaps, but I'm willing to expand the defintition geek tragedy Jun 2013 #230

You can't do that... there is specific criteria under the Whistleblower Protection Act. NT Windy Jun 2013 #235

I'm allowed to think for myself and not restrict geek tragedy Jun 2013 #236

"Chinese agent" ??? marions ghost Jun 2013 #271

He's in China, seeking the protection of the Chinese government, providing them geek tragedy Jun 2013 #272

No evidence that the Chinese have been given any info marions ghost Jun 2013 #274

Every single one of Snowden's claims is 'reportedly' as well. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #275

I'm going to believe Wapo's Barton Gellman who is marions ghost Jun 2013 #276

How do you know the documents he gave them are authentic? geek tragedy Jun 2013 #277

Ha ha, oh brother marions ghost Jun 2013 #279

More likely a defector than an agent. David__77 Jun 2013 #303

I see what you're saying--at the end of the day six of one, half dozen of the other. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #304

I just mean that China would have kept him at a long distance if he had contacted them. David__77 Jun 2013 #307

I cannot see anyone defending this latest bit of news. graham4anything Jun 2013 #2

you will arely staircase Jun 2013 #42

Oh yeah, the Strawmen are out in droves. Cha Jun 2013 #152

Wait 5 minutes (nt) Recursion Jun 2013 #157

Snowden has become a cult Floyd_Gondolli Jun 2013 #168

"Snowden has become a cult" You ain't lying. And by the same folks who bray at the moon Number23 Jun 2013 #228

It's offensive to me that you think the Chinese are that ignorant. DCKit Jun 2013 #264

I'm laughing at that too marions ghost Jun 2013 #273

The fact that you think that's what I said is what's really laughable Number23 Jun 2013 #281

Are we still gonna call him a hero? Or does this cross the line for folks here? OregonBlue Jun 2013 #3

This crosses the line for me--the FISA stuff was whistleblowing. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #6

Not so fast. avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #23

Here's the interview with the Chinese (government approved) paper geek tragedy Jun 2013 #26

South China Morning Post is not a state organ at all. David__77 Jun 2013 #305

There WAS NO Whistleblowing VanillaRhapsody Jun 2013 #144

THANK YOU! eissa Jun 2013 #166

an ass and a Traitor now... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2013 #176

Does this revelation surprise you? East Coast Pirate Jun 2013 #87

Well, I guess that changes things... EC Jun 2013 #4

Its not.about.Snowden LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #5

If he would have remained anonymous that would have been true still_one Jun 2013 #17

No, he really isn't, though some are desperately trying to make him the story LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #25

If he communicated with Greenwald through email or telephone, OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #181

The plot thickens. HappyMe Jun 2013 #7

I wonder how much they'll pay him. nt pnwmom Jun 2013 #11

Who knows. HappyMe Jun 2013 #15

No way will China turn him over now. He's working for them. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #20

This explains to running off to China thing. HappyMe Jun 2013 #34

Russia must have lost the bidding war. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #35

Well, I hope he enjoys his HappyMe Jun 2013 #41

He did it for the food. Wait Wut Jun 2013 #60

lol! HappyMe Jun 2013 #75

China paid Glenn Shriver $70k and he didn't even give them any info. n/t tammywammy Jun 2013 #233

This kid is a danger to himself BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #8

Nah. He just earned his safety by signing up with the Chinese government. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #10

I doubt he's worth the trouble to them BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #13

What trouble? nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #22

He becomes a major sticking point in the relationship if they shield him BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #36

That's negotiating. Hold the threat of extradition over his head unless geek tragedy Jun 2013 #39

The article says Snowden's location is still unknown. randome Jun 2013 #46

The WSJ just quoted him as staying put in HK BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #52

I'm not trying to delve into dark CT here, but was that an in-person interview? randome Jun 2013 #61

he went to work for Booz Allen Hamilton AFTER he first spoke to Greenwald in January! VanillaRhapsody Jun 2013 #147

To be entirely fair, he was at the NSA in other positions for the past few years. randome Jun 2013 #151

Yep...Greenwald has now stepped into deep doo doo! VanillaRhapsody Jun 2013 #153

Nonsense. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #285

Oh really? VanillaRhapsody Jun 2013 #289

Extremely high bar for journalists - ever hear of the First Amendment? Hissyspit Jun 2013 #293

In a hurry to have a journalist connected to possible treason investigated... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2013 #295

I'm as concerned about abuse of law as much as rule of law. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #296

Everything so far has been perfectly legal VanillaRhapsody Jun 2013 #297

I don't know either of those to be true. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #298

You don't know that its not... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2013 #299

Did he or didn't he. Reportedly doesn't cut it. Either way, whether intentional or not he is now still_one Jun 2013 #9

Here's the interview geek tragedy Jun 2013 #16

But he just this morning that he isn't a traitor. warrior1 Jun 2013 #12

That is treason. ananda Jun 2013 #19

It does read a bit like a grandiose, slow, suicide. nt MADem Jun 2013 #265

If true it would definitely be treason liberal N proud Jun 2013 #21

Oh boy Life Long Dem Jun 2013 #27

They link to the interview. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #28

A video interview Life Long Dem Jun 2013 #49

Holy fuck! randome Jun 2013 #85

And I wonder if he did all this timdog44 Jun 2013 #122

Actually, his big 'reveals' haven't been that earth-shattering. randome Jun 2013 #126

I was thinking in terms timdog44 Jun 2013 #130

Ah, I see. You're likely right, although I think the Chinese could use him as a bargaining chip. randome Jun 2013 #132

Yes, well, 'reportedly' the NSA has 'direct access' to all major tech companies. randome Jun 2013 #44

True Life Long Dem Jun 2013 #51

I can hear Greenwald saying these are just administration talking points still_one Jun 2013 #29

Greenwald helped this guy suicide flamingdem Jun 2013 #91

I suspect you are right. He probably encouraged him to go public, instead of dealing behind the still_one Jun 2013 #170

Now Greenwald is over in Hong Kong flamingdem Jun 2013 #188

They will both be propaganda tools for the Chinese government still_one Jun 2013 #221

Or perhaps the Julian Defense. randome Jun 2013 #108

Are we finally acknowledge that we are Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #30

And there it is. DevonRex Jun 2013 #31

The dust is settling... Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #33

Now it's treason and now the hypocrisy is overwhelming. stevenleser Jun 2013 #37

that's about the biggest oxymoron ever. Whisp Jun 2013 #127

I think it's a tie with "conservative Christian" Jamaal510 Jun 2013 #154

wow just fucking wow arely staircase Jun 2013 #38

like nobody knew this already lol nt msongs Jun 2013 #40

There is always the assumption of this, by everyone. MineralMan Jun 2013 #62

Richard Clarke has spoke about this openly. avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #72

Except Clarke didn't become a subject of the Chinese government geek tragedy Jun 2013 #77

We don't know that as a fact. avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #84

When you beg the Chinese government for protection, you're geek tragedy Jun 2013 #88

I don't think all the Business Insider stories are solid. avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #101

Oh please, Hong Kong is no free speech mecca. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #207

Ms. Ip is a "pro-Beijing" lawmaker. The sense is that she was delivering a message MADem Jun 2013 #262

begging?submitting? he talked to a chinese newspaper, boohoo Monkie Jun 2013 #248

You have ZERO evidence that he - Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #175

Giving classified information -even verbally- still violates the oath he took. randome Jun 2013 #182

holy cripes! Now how does Greenwald figure in all this mess. Whisp Jun 2013 #43

This is not Greenwald's fault by any stretch. It was Snowden's choice to sign geek tragedy Jun 2013 #48

of course you could be right but Whisp Jun 2013 #55

To his credit, Greenwald didn't publish the stuff about China. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #58

HE chose not to? Or did the Guardian make that decision? randome Jun 2013 #66

He had the documents. I'm guessing Greenwald's deal with the Guardian geek tragedy Jun 2013 #68

Has anything come from Greenwald today? MineralMan Jun 2013 #71

Not that I've seen. He may start to lay low now. randome Jun 2013 #92

I hadn't seen anything, either. MineralMan Jun 2013 #93

Here: Hissyspit Jun 2013 #193

Maybe the CATO Institute will hire him on to write another "white paper." MADem Jun 2013 #267

Why do this? Hissyspit Jun 2013 #283

He's not telling the truth. And that is easily proven. MADem Jun 2013 #286

Guest speech. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #287

It wasn't a "guest speech," he was the pet liberal at the MADem Jun 2013 #288

"Honest brokers..." Hissyspit Jun 2013 #300

A fan of "corporate personhood" in his cheerleading for the CITIZEN's UNITED ruling... nt MADem Jun 2013 #301

Here: Hissyspit Jun 2013 #192

I did look. Didn't find that. Thanks. MineralMan Jun 2013 #195

Greenwald may be used in this as well. Whisp Jun 2013 #133

Jesus... Hissyspit Jun 2013 #196

He eats butterflies. randome Jun 2013 #212

Greenwald may be on the verge of being seriously questioned MineralMan Jun 2013 #67

I disagree. I don't see that he's done anything approaching illegality. nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #70

Doesn't matter. People will want to know what he has seen, and MineralMan Jun 2013 #76

Greenwald lives in Brazil, so the privilege will probably extend quite far nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #78

Does the US have an embassy in Brazil? MineralMan Jun 2013 #96

Greenwald will not likely go anywhere near the embassy. nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #99

Ah, I see. Well, that will take care of it then. MineralMan Jun 2013 #106

me neither arely staircase Jun 2013 #102

They'll want a debrief, at the least Recursion Jun 2013 #160

He's not subject to the reach of US law enforcement. nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #161

Greenwald may have just been holding on for maximum exposure. He has said he has additional info and okaawhatever Jun 2013 #209

Because he doesn't want 15 minutes of fame. He wants a full hour! randome Jun 2013 #210

Exactly, same re Julian treestar Jun 2013 #258

I suspect that Mr. Greenwald will be the target of a grand jury msanthrope Jun 2013 #54

The consequence of being an egomanical asshat eissa Jun 2013 #74

Well said! nt mimi85 Jun 2013 #150

What consequence? What failure? Hissyspit Jun 2013 #198

Who would want to be the next Woodward? reusrename Jun 2013 #280

Woodward is a lying hack. But people forget, his first "big story" with that guy Bernstein had some MADem Jun 2013 #290

Yes, it is sad that it's come to this. randome Jun 2013 #291

Many don't know that he knew Scotty was lying during the Plame affair and he kept quiet. reusrename Jun 2013 #294

He signaled he would do this previously: DevonRex Jun 2013 #45

If this is true, and he is showing documents that demonstrate MineralMan Jun 2013 #47

You are right that it goes Aerows Jun 2013 #137

I'm not sure about treason, really. MineralMan Jun 2013 #141

Maybe it was another Powerpoint presentation! Damn you, Microsoft! Damn you to hell! randome Jun 2013 #155

I have no idea. We'll probably get a better idea as time passes. MineralMan Jun 2013 #158

"By the way, Mr. Obama, now that your spy has confessed your many Capitalist Pig sins..." randome Jun 2013 #167

That may come up. Among other things. MineralMan Jun 2013 #169

I don't have some personal need to make this guy into a hero DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #50

What makes you think he will be miserable as an honored guest geek tragedy Jun 2013 #53

I'm just guessing, like the rest of us DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #57

He didn't even show a slide into anything. Just an increases use of pen registers and trap devices. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #56

One word. Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2013 #59

omg Richard Clarke, the former National Coordinator for Securrity, Infrastructure Protection and avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #64

Did Clarke submit to the authority of the Chinese government geek tragedy Jun 2013 #73

That is an allegation. It remains to be seen if Snowden did anything of the kind. avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #80

He's already submitted to the Chinese government's authority--the geek tragedy Jun 2013 #83

What do you mean he has chosen to submit to Chinese government authority? avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #95

He's asking for asylum from the Chinese. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #100

He has stated he wants to be under the laws on Hong Kong. avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #107

Hong Kong is part of China. They don't vote for their own leaders. nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #125

I am reiterating Snowden's reasoning for choosing avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #128

You are frightfully uninformed, then...eom Kolesar Jun 2013 #214

he/she seems to be going full out on the sado-masochism metaphors Monkie Jun 2013 #249

Please show us the evidence that - Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #178

Besides the reporter saying he showed them? nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #180

The reporter has claimed that Snowden -- Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #186

SCMP is owned by a pro-Beijing plutocrat and is based in China. nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #189

He's a stinking rich Malay businessman, and he bought his majority from MADem Jun 2013 #268

So you don't believe everything you read in the papers? Does that include the Guardian? randome Jun 2013 #183

Show me the newpapers reports that claim - Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #190

I never claimed he did. But he claimed -in the newspaper report- that he showed... randome Jun 2013 #217

From the article - Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #218

I think it's safe to assume employees of the Chinese government read newspapers, though. randome Jun 2013 #219

Ms. Lam's boss is a pro-Beijing Malay billionaire. MADem Jun 2013 #270

Uh oh! Game over, Man. Game over. FSogol Jun 2013 #65

"Harold & Kumar's Roadtrip To Benghazi"! randome Jun 2013 #69

Benghazi! FSogol Jun 2013 #82

I never trusted him from the beginning. mfcorey1 Jun 2013 #79

All I had to hear was Randian to know he had an agenda flamingdem Jun 2013 #81

You think the Pauls will support this latest bit of info? Apparently, Snowden is a serious Paulite. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #117

Good point to see what they say next - wonder if this flamingdem Jun 2013 #121

What's even more alarming is that it's not only "repukes" and "Paulites". Look around. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #162

And we all know the FREE PRESS in China never lies, amiright? cherokeeprogressive Jun 2013 #86

They have video. nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #89

Video of what? avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #109

Who's seen it? cherokeeprogressive Jun 2013 #115

My mistake--it's old video shown at their site. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #118

Exactly. Convenient timing for China to make this "revelation" and given snagglepuss Jun 2013 #159

Guess he didnt think he was in enough shit already. bunnies Jun 2013 #90

I wonder if the DU folks claiming him to be a hero... HipChick Jun 2013 #94

I saw something to that effect upthread. MineralMan Jun 2013 #103

you nailed it with that HipChick warrior1 Jun 2013 #138

It'll be interesting to see if Glenn Greenwald will continue defending him now MrScorpio Jun 2013 #97

I think even Stevie Wonder saw this coming.. HipChick Jun 2013 #104

Lol Euphoria Jun 2013 #252

EEK! Bogeyman Alert!! Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #98

K&R stonecutter357 Jun 2013 #105

I begin to think that this kid is just a loose canon. Stupid managers at BAH hired him! n/t JackN415 Jun 2013 #110

so, people here actually defend it reorg Jun 2013 #111

This makes spying on the American people Aerows Jun 2013 #119

Not everyone agrees that it's spying when data is stored and never looked at unless with a warrant. randome Jun 2013 #123

Pen registers have been used for decades and are constitutional with a court order. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #136

Oh, I have no doubt that if all of this is true Aerows Jun 2013 #143

His documents could be provided by the Chinese. His travel to HK is now explained. JackN415 Jun 2013 #120

oh? wow. good point! *faints. Whisp Jun 2013 #145

Here is our "War Games" wake up Politicalboi Jun 2013 #124

DU rec...nt SidDithers Jun 2013 #129

Now its treason. Itchinjim Jun 2013 #131

Also from the South China Morning Post -- Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #134

Since 2009... get it? Since big bad Obama has been in office OKNancy Jun 2013 #135

Wow. The King-Boehner-Feinstein faction of DU is in high dudgeon. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2013 #139

Double Freakin' WOW the HIDE your head up a silly Strawman is par for the course. Cha Jun 2013 #146

Yeah, because handing over intelligence documents to the Chinese geek tragedy Jun 2013 #148

Clueless. Purely freaking clueless. gcomeau Jun 2013 #204

Did Snowden reveal anything that the Chinese or anyone else did not already know? azurnoir Jun 2013 #140

It depends on what's in the documents, thucythucy Jun 2013 #213

Snowden is not a "whistle blower".. he's a Cha Jun 2013 #142

China will be shocked by this Enrique Jun 2013 #149

I'm assuming mimi85 Jun 2013 #171

i know it's bad form to leave off the sarcasm thingy Enrique Jun 2013 #184

The sarcasm tag is, in fact, overused. randome Jun 2013 #185

I don't believe this news. The US would NEVER do something like this!!! Dash87 Jun 2013 #174

now hes in deep MFM008 Jun 2013 #156

"He said in that interview he could give someone the identity of every agent world wide" PragmaticLiberal Jun 2013 #199

This guy is playing a very dangerous game... Blue_Roses Jun 2013 #163

Any good Snowden did, now is threatened to be lost steve2470 Jun 2013 #164

He didn't do any good in the first place. gcomeau Jun 2013 #206

Ayupper. MynameisBlarney Jun 2013 #165

"release of official secrets, which is illegal in Hong Kong and the United States". Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #172

Maybe this is why China has been so vigorously hacking American computers... AZ Progressive Jun 2013 #173

I agree that this is a mistake by Snowden. Maedhros Jun 2013 #194

Would you ProSense Jun 2013 #197

I welcome the test of the law in court Maedhros Jun 2013 #215

A *MISTAKE*? gcomeau Jun 2013 #203

Filthy traitor Politicub Jun 2013 #200

We SHOULD be hacking China's computers. Lint Head Jun 2013 #201

Yeah, considering... GoCubsGo Jun 2013 #211

Ok apologists, tell us how he's not a traitor now? -eom gcomeau Jun 2013 #202

To me, Snowden is irrelevant. Maedhros Jun 2013 #216

"identified 36 offenses with which Mr. Snowden could be charged under both Hong Kong and..... Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #205

Good question. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #220

What, we hacked China! AnnieK401 Jun 2013 #208

I am much more interested in surveillance by NSA. IF Snowden has papers to prove that US is hacking idwiyo Jun 2013 #222

Then ProSense Jun 2013 #223

Hardly. He might be a hero to Chinese, whistleblower to those who only care that he provided the idwiyo Jun 2013 #226

Well, ProSense Jun 2013 #227

Why does it matter? Is the info he revealed true? I believe so. Everything else is irrelevant. idwiyo Jun 2013 #232

What's "true"? ProSense Jun 2013 #237

Snowden alleged that US government is spying on its own and foreign citizens without a justifiable idwiyo Jun 2013 #239

Well, ProSense Jun 2013 #241

Correction, I believe that information itself is true, who presents that information is irrelevant. idwiyo Jun 2013 #242

The information doesn't show anything illegal. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #243

That would be your opinion. Thank you for sharing it. :) idwiyo Jun 2013 #244

No, actually, that would be a fact. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #245

Again, thank you for sharing your opinion. Declaring something as fact hardly makes it so. idwiyo Jun 2013 #246

Which is why "declaring" it "illegal" when it isn't, is your opinion. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #247

Frustrating, isn't it? MADem Jun 2013 #278

Of course it's my opinion, did I claim it wasn't? Also, it would be up to the courts to decide idwiyo Jun 2013 #282

I'm sure the Chinese were terribly surprised to find that out?? kentuck Jun 2013 #224

and giddy with delight to have the guy who can tell them to what extent arely staircase Jun 2013 #238

Many Thanks for the Updates, Cha Jun 2013 #250

At least Obama is spying on us AND China. Dr Fate Jun 2013 #251

Yeah, screw facts. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #253

Who gives a flying fuck? Bonobo Jun 2013 #256

Does ProSense Jun 2013 #257

No, I literally do not give a flying fuck. Bonobo Jun 2013 #259

Clearly, you do ProSense Jun 2013 #260

Oh Bonobo Jun 2013 #261

You ProSense Jun 2013 #263

The Hair-On-Fire folks are now suddenly interested in the details. JoePhilly Jun 2013 #266

Oh, well this story make the administration look so much better.. SomethingFishy Jun 2013 #284

No one's been talking much about the administration. randome Jun 2013 #292

The spying is still happening. It's relevant. Snowden's future prospects: not nearly as relevant. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #302

Good CNN article you posted-- marions ghost Jun 2013 #269

K & R Scurrilous Jun 2013 #309