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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 09:35 PM Jun 2013

Glenn Greenwald's 'Epic Botch'? [View all]

Glenn Greenwald's 'Epic Botch'?

Rick Perlstein

<...>

The NSA slide that tech experts say Glenn Greenwald misinterpreted. (The Guardian/NSA, US Federal Government.)

Bloggers and experts in the tech world have been raising an important caveat to a key aspect of Glenn Greenwald’s world-shaking scoop about the NSA’s PRISM story—an aspect my friend Karl Fogel, an open-source software guru, blogger and the proprietor of QuestionCopyright.org, calls an “epic botch” by Greenwald. People outside of the tech world absolutely need to know about this debate too, which is why, though I’m no expert, I’m sharing it with this wider audience. I deeply admire what Greenwald and his team at The Guardian are doing. I write in the interest of helping them do it better.

The “crucial question,” as Fogel frames it in a blog post, is this: “Are online service companies giving the government fully automated access to their data,” as Greenwald says they are, “without any opportunity for review or intervention by company lawyers?” This is what the companies have been denying—in statements that critics have been interpreting as non-denial denials. (Apple: “We have never heard of PRISM. We do not provide any government agency with direct access to our servers, and any government agency requesting customer data must get a court order.” So what if Apple et al. knew the formal name of the program? And what about indirect access? Or government contractors? And how are they defining “customer data”? Etc.)

Fogel points out that a widely read post to this effect called “Cowards” from the blogg Uncrunched—“What has these people, among the wealthiest on the planet, so scared that they find themselves engaging in these verbal gymnastics to avoid telling a simple truth?”—is “mostly wrong.” He says, “It looks like Greenwald and company simply misunderstood an NSA slide [see image at the top of this post for the slide] because they don’t have the technical background to know that ‘servers’ is a generic word and doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing as ‘the main servers on which a company’s customer-facing services run.’ The ‘servers’ mentioned in the slide are just lockboxes used for secure data transfer. They have nothing to do with the process of deciding which requests to comply with—they’re just means of securely and efficiently delivering information once a company has decided to do so.”...this slide describes how to move data from once place to another without it getting intercepted in transit: “What the hell are the companies supposed to do?” Fogel jokes. “Put the data on a CD-ROM and mail it to Fort Meade?”

The implications of this interpretation, if correct, completely shift the grounds for the discussion of how the NSA’s PRISM program works—“the difference,” as Mark Jaquith of WordPress writes, “between a bombshell and a yawn of a story.”

- more -

http://www.thenation.com/blog/174783/glenn-greenwalds-epic-botch#axzz2W9DN9MQV


61 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Glenn Greenwald's 'Epic Botch'? [View all] ProSense Jun 2013 OP
Kick! n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #1
Another ProSense propaganda FAIL LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #44
Old news unless I'm mistaken Babel_17 Jun 2013 #60
Sorry, I thought this was a fresh thread Babel_17 Jun 2013 #61
Kicking the FAIL LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #49
Another! n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #2
If anyone actually reads the article the author is incorrect. NOVA_Dem Jun 2013 #3
This is such ProSense Jun 2013 #8
Here is the NSA slide in question Maedhros Jun 2013 #50
Sorry, I think your post is the "Fail". Cha Jun 2013 #14
Just like your principles you forgot to posit an argument. NOVA_Dem Jun 2013 #17
Oh look another Fail. Cha Jun 2013 #20
You're so boring. Please point out where i was factually incorrect in my original post? NOVA_Dem Jun 2013 #24
Those who rely on snark are incapable of actually discussing anything. villager Jun 2013 #26
The slide doesn't mean what Greenwald says it means. It's a reading comprehension thing. pnwmom Jun 2013 #30
There is a comprehension problem. NOVA_Dem Jun 2013 #38
He misinterpreted the slide about "direct access" frazzled Jun 2013 #36
The Washington Post believes that there is some merit to the direct access theory: Maedhros Jun 2013 #51
Do you have any PROOF that he just reported what the slide said? I haven't seen any copy of the slid uponit7771 Jun 2013 #45
Here it is. NOVA_Dem Jun 2013 #46
In that case FTP servers aren't "direct access", I don't see an open B2B direct or VPN connection uponit7771 Jun 2013 #47
Perhaps the person who drafted the slide doesn't fully understand the how the data is exchanged. NOVA_Dem Jun 2013 #48
I'm comforted by the fact that you had to self kick twice to get 6 votes Hydra Jun 2013 #4
People kick their own OPs because they think they're important Cha Jun 2013 #6
I'm "comforted by the fact" that you kicked my OP. ProSense Jun 2013 #7
You posted this info elsewhere already Hydra Jun 2013 #9
Link? n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #11
You should know, it's your OP Hydra Jun 2013 #18
Wait, ProSense Jun 2013 #25
Different authors floating the same point Hydra Jun 2013 #27
Your claim was bogus. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #29
I'm sure ProSense doesn't consider being ragged on by GGs anything close Cha Jun 2013 #13
Greenwald is in big trouble. The experts at the NSA think Snowden is going to defect to China. Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #5
"Epic Botch"! Greenwald!? Cha Jun 2013 #10
I've just doubled checked the Book of Revelations in my copy of the Electronic Bible... MrScorpio Jun 2013 #40
Glenn is actually pretty good Maedhros Jun 2013 #52
that 'numerous occasions' is kind of worrisome in itself, isn't it? Whisp Jun 2013 #54
In my experience Maedhros Jun 2013 #58
The comments section of the article simply destroys Vinnie From Indy Jun 2013 #12
Where did ProSense Jun 2013 #15
I hope you realize that every one of your blue linkies costs Vinnie From Indy Jun 2013 #19
Seriously ProSense Jun 2013 #35
best post ever! Monkie Jun 2013 #41
Seriously? ProSense Jun 2013 #42
Plenty of comments for the other perspective, too. randome Jun 2013 #16
Nonsense! Vinnie From Indy Jun 2013 #21
I see you haven't connected the dots with the AT&T data rooms + Verizon tapping Hydra Jun 2013 #23
That's an amazing trick - copying data to a datacenter that isn't even built yet! (nt) jeff47 Jun 2013 #31
We both know it's only a matter of time, which is quickly running out 99th_Monkey Jun 2013 #56
Since we haven't heard from Greenwald for a while, I'm betting he's coming to this conclusion on his rpannier Jun 2013 #32
Actually he responding to these criticisms today Maedhros Jun 2013 #53
kick flamingdem Jun 2013 #22
Exactly. DevonRex Jun 2013 #28
The big revelation is the role of private redneck corporations! Coyotl Jun 2013 #33
Glenn Greenwald isn't the story anymore...what our Reps and Senators are learning or should learn dkf Jun 2013 #34
Kick and recommended. Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #37
DU rec...nt SidDithers Jun 2013 #39
"Upstream" males no sense if Greenwald is right Recursion Jun 2013 #43
kick & rec giftedgirl77 Jun 2013 #55
Kick! n/t krawhitham Jun 2013 #57
Awww, did somebody speak poorly of your messiah? RetroLounge Jun 2013 #59
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