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stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
62. No, I'm not. You don't understand what that means.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:44 PM
Jun 2013

The ultimate target of the investigation has to be a foreign sponsored or assisted espionage or terrorist group. That is what all of the caselaw on this says, and I have highlighted the relevant portions of US v Duggan below, to include a portion that spells out that the target may not be known.

Note also the last thing I bolded "Prior to the enactment of FISA, virtually every court that had addressed the issue had concluded that the President had the inherent power to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance to collect foreign intelligence information, and that such surveillances constituted an exception to the warrant requirement of the Fourth Amendment."

http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/nat-sec/duggan.htm


II. FISA

[50] Enacted in 1978, FISA generally allows a federal officer, if authorized by the President of the United States acting through the Attorney General (or the Acting Attorney General or the Deputy Attorney General) of the United States, to obtain from a judge of the specially created FISA Court, see 50 U.S.C. ? 1803, an order "approving electronic surveillance of a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power for the purpose of obtaining foreign intelligence information." Id. ? 1802(b).

[51] FISA contains several definitions of "foreign power" and "agent of a foreign power." Most pertinently to this case, FISA defines "foreign power" to include "a group engaged in international terrorism or activities in preparation therefor." Id. ? 1801(a)(4). An "agent of a foreign power" is defined to include both "any person other than a United States person, who . . . acts in the United States as . . . a member of a foreign power as defined in [? 1801(a)(4)]," id. ? 1801(b)(1)(A), and "any person who . . . knowingly engages in . . . international terrorism, or activities that are in preparation therefor, for or on behalf of a foreign power," id. ? 1801(b)(2)(C). Section 1801(i) defines "United States person" to include

[52] a citizen of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence (as defined in section 1101 (a)(20) of title 8), [and] an unincorporated association a substantial number of members of which are citizens of the United States or aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence.

[53] The Act defines "foreign intelligence information," in part, as

[54] (1) information that relates to, and if concerning a United States person is necessary to, the ability of the United States to protect against --

[55] (B) sabotage or international terrorism by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; or


[56] (2) information with respect to a foreign power or foreign territory that relates to, and if concerning a United States person is necessary to --

[57] (A) the national defense or security of the United States; or

[58] (B) the conduct of the foreign affairs of the United States.

[59] Id. ? 1801(e). "International terrorism" is defined to include activities that -- (1) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that . . . would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any State;

[60] (2) appear to be intended --

[61] (A) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;


[62] (B) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

[63] (C) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping; and

[64] (3) occur totally outside the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to coerce or intimidate, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.

[65] Id. ? 1801(c).

[66] A federal officer making application for a FISA order approving electronic surveillance must include in his application, inter alia, "the identity, if known, or a description of the target of the electronic surveillance," id. ? 1804(a)(3); "a statement of the facts and circumstances relied upon by the applicant to justify his belief that . . . the target of the electronic surveillance is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power," id. ? 1804(a)(4); and a certification by the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, or an executive branch designee of the President that, inter alia, the certifying official deems the information sought to be foreign intelligence information and that the purpose of the surveillance is to obtain foreign intelligence information, together with a statement of the basis for the certification that the information sought is the type of foreign intelligence information designated. Id. ? 1804(a)(7). When the target is a United States person, the government is required to minimize the acquisition and retention of nonpublic available information and to prohibit its dissemination, consistent with the need of the United States to obtain, produce, and disseminate foreign intelligence information, id. ? 1801(h); and the application must set out what minimization procedures are proposed, id. ? 1804(a)(5).

[67] The FISA Judge is authorized to enter an order approving electronic surveillance if he finds, inter alia, that

[68] on the basis of the facts submitted by the applicant there is probable cause to believe that --

[69] (A) the target of the electronic surveillance is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power: Provided, That no United States person may be considered a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States,

[70] id. ? 1805(a)(3), and finds that the applying official has obtained the requisite authorization and has submitted the required information, id. ?? 1805(a)(1), (2) and (5). If the target is a United States person, the FISA Judge is not to approve surveillance unless he finds that the certifications submitted pursuant to ? 1804(a)(7)(E) are not clearly erroneous on the basis of the data before him. Id. ? 1805(a)(5).

[71] Defendants mount two types of challenge with regard to FISA. First, they contend that the Act is unconstitutional on several grounds. In addition, they contend that even if FISA is not unconstitutional, its requirements were not met in this case.

[72] A. The Constitutionality of FISA

[73] Defendants contend that FISA is unconstitutional principally on the grounds that (1) it is so broad as to deprive certain persons of due process of law, (2) it violates the probable cause requirement of the Fourth Amendment, and (3) it deprives nonresident aliens of the equal protection of the law. We find no merit in these contentions.*fn4

[74] 1. The Scope of the Act

[75] Defendants argue that FISA is impermissibly broad in several respects. They point out that foreign intelligence information includes "information with respect to a foreign power . . . that relates to . . . (A) the national defense or the security of the United States; or (B) the conduct of the foreign affairs of the United States." 50 U.S.C. ? 1801(e)(2). They also point to the definition of an agent of a foreign power as a person, other than a United States person, who

[76] acts for or on behalf of a foreign power which engages in clandestine intelligence activities in the United States contrary to the interests of the United States, when the circumstances of such person's presence in the United States indicate that such person may engage in such activities in the United States,

[77] id. ? 1801(b)(1)(B) (emphasis added), and to the definition of an agent of a foreign power as any person who

[78] knowingly engages in clandestine intelligence gathering activities for or on behalf of a foreign power, which activities involve or may involve a violation of the criminal statutes of the United States,

[79] id. ? 1801(b)(2)(A) (emphasis added). Defendants argue that the breadth of the above definitions gives the Act unlimited scope and permits the electronic surveillance of persons who "may" be engaging in activities that "may" violate United States law.

[80] Interesting though these arguments may be in the abstract, they have no application to the case at hand. The information relayed by Hanratty to the FBI clearly portrayed Megahey as a member of a "group engaged in international terrorism or activities in preparation therefor," id. ? 1801(a)(4); Megahey was therefore an agent of a foreign power under ? 1801(b)(1)(A). There is no suggestion in the record that Megahey was targeted because he was or may have been gathering intelligence. The sections of the Act relied upon by the defendants to show that the Act is impermissibly broad are simply irrelevant to this case. The sections and definitions plainly applicable to Megahey are explicit, unequivocal, and clearly defined.

[81] Nor are we impressed by defendants' argument that insofar as ? 1801(e)(2) defines foreign intelligence information as information that "relates to . . . (A) the national defense or the security of the United States; or (B) the conduct of the foreign affairs of the United States" it is impermissibly vague. Section 1801(e)(1)(B) defines foreign intelligence information as "information that relates to . . . the ability of the United States to protect against . . . international terrorism by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power." Given the information provided by Hanratty, the government plainly had a basis under this section for describing the information sought by surveillance of Megahey, self-proclaimed leader of an international terrorist group, as foreign intelligence information. Thus, even if we thought ? 1801(e)(2)'s concepts of national defense, national security, or conduct of foreign affairs to be vague, which we do not, we would find therein no basis for reversing the convictions of these defendants, whose circumstances were governed by an entirely different definition.

[82] 2. The Probable Cause Requirement of the Fourth Amendment

[83] The Fourth Amendment provides that "no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause. . . ." Defendants argue principally (1) that the Amendment applies to all proposed surveillances, including those in national security cases, and (2) that even if there were an exception for national security matters, it would not apply to terrorism cases where the objects of the terrorism are entirely outside of the United States. We reject these contentions.

[84] Prior to the enactment of FISA, virtually every court that had addressed the issue had concluded that the President had the inherent power to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance to collect foreign intelligence information, and that such surveillances constituted an exception to the warrant requirement of the Fourth Amendment. See United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908, 912-14 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144, 71 L. Ed. 2d 296, 102 S. Ct. 1004 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871, 875 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890, 54 L. Ed. 2d 175, 98 S. Ct. 263 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593, 605 (3d Cir.) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881, 42 L. Ed. 2d 121, 95 S. Ct. 147 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418, 426 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 960, 39 L. Ed. 2d 575, 94 S. Ct. 1490 (1974); but see Zweibon v. Mitchell, 170 U.S. App. D.C. 1, 516 F.2d 594, 633-651 (D.C. Cir. 1975), (dictum), cert. denied, 425 U.S. 944, 48 L. Ed. 2d 187, 96 S. Ct. 1685 (1976). The Supreme Court specifically declined to address this issue in United States v. United States District Court [Keith, J.], 407 U.S. 297, 308, 321-22, 32 L. Ed. 2d 752, 92 S. Ct. 2125 (1972) (hereinafter referred to as " Keith &quot , but it had made clear that the requirements of the Fourth Amendment may change when differing governmental interests are at stake, see Camara v. Municipal Court, 387 U.S. 523, 87 S. Ct. 1727, 18 L. Ed. 2d 930 (1967), and it observed in Keith that the governmental interests presented in national security investigations differ substantially from those presented in traditional criminal investigations. 407 U.S. at 321-324.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

I honestly don't care. It still wouldn't make it legal or moral. nt Live and Learn Jun 2013 #1
Legal? Well it's looks like it was legal Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #4
It is unconstitutional which makes it illegal. nt Live and Learn Jun 2013 #7
How come the Federal Judges on the FISA court didn't say it was unconstitutional? Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #8
It's not Unconstitutional. I explained this all here with appeals court case citations stevenleser Jun 2013 #11
thanks for that info nt steve2470 Jun 2013 #18
If the court says the sky is red, I will still know it is blue. Live and Learn Jun 2013 #20
Unless you are a Constitutional Law expert, you don't have the expertise to interpret it. stevenleser Jun 2013 #24
Unless you are an Authoritarian tool... 99Forever Jun 2013 #63
As your entire post is ad-hominem and devoid of facts, you are acknowledging I'm right. stevenleser Jun 2013 #64
"Authoritarian"!!! That's the battle cry of the Cha Jun 2013 #79
This tactic always amuses me. woo me with science Jun 2013 #97
Bacon? snooper2 Jun 2013 #66
Right on 99 Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #108
Article III courts are not in charge of sky color, but they are in charge of consitutionality arely staircase Jun 2013 #30
how many on here would agree with the courts that Citizens United is constitutional? liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #90
The federal courts also upheld laws ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #26
they are the keepers of what is constitutional arely staircase Jun 2013 #31
No, not really. ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #33
by the courts arely staircase Jun 2013 #34
No, first by society who in turns puts the pressure on the courts. ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #40
It has nothing to do with "authoritarian" any more than the "Yelling Fire in a Crowded Theater" stevenleser Jun 2013 #49
So they were wrong, and reversed themselves treestar Jun 2013 #38
So, whose to say they aren't screwing up now? ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #39
They might be treestar Jun 2013 #101
They did rule DOJ behaved unconstitutionally, as late as 2011. DirkGently Jun 2013 #58
It's not unconstitutional. Appeals courts have ruled on this again, and again. And the SCOTUS stevenleser Jun 2013 #9
The courts are wrong, just as they have been ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #41
No, they're not, just like the fire in a crowded theater exemption to the 1st amendment isnt wrong. stevenleser Jun 2013 #44
Nope..... ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #47
Wild rhetoric is not a substitute for an argument on Constitutional law. stevenleser Jun 2013 #50
I don't care if you think the argument is valid or not. ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #53
I figured out that you didn't care about the facts long ago. No need to point it out. stevenleser Jun 2013 #65
You're just so clever. ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #67
Keep telling yourself folks with the facts on their side are wrong and your suppositions are right stevenleser Jun 2013 #70
I'm doing real well in life, thank you. ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #73
The OP tends to ignore the fact that the FISA court already ruled that the NSA broke law think Jun 2013 #84
One request for a warrant among thousands apparently exceeded FISA. Your point is not made. stevenleser Jun 2013 #103
And they are trying Aerows Jun 2013 #107
And now you distort the nature of the NSA law breaking to fit your meme think Jun 2013 #112
The SCOTUS would have to decide that.. DCBob Jun 2013 #10
And the SCOTUS repeatedly has denied cert. on these cases. They think the appeals courts decisions stevenleser Jun 2013 #14
Thats what I thought.. thanks for the clarification. DCBob Jun 2013 #25
The Supreme Court either hears or does not hear a case based on what they want to rule on indepat Jun 2013 #37
The SCOTUS denying cert goes back 60+ years on these issues. That's way beyond the current court. stevenleser Jun 2013 #45
It's not unconstitutional till there is a final court ruling that it's unconstitutional. pnwmom Jun 2013 #13
Actually these cases have come before fed. appeals courts a lot and FISA has been upheld, AND... stevenleser Jun 2013 #15
Thank you. I should have said that it hasn't been found unconstitutional pnwmom Jun 2013 #21
Except you're wrong about that, as you know. DirkGently Jun 2013 #59
It is rather disingenuous that some here refuse to acknowledge this fact think Jun 2013 #82
You know that prosecutors are denied some percentage of warrants all the time, right? stevenleser Jun 2013 #104
The word "warrant" isn't even mentioned in the article. Nor any of the other articles posted think Jun 2013 #113
It proves the administration thinks it doesn't have to discuss it. DirkGently Jun 2013 #116
There is never an end to this process. JackRiddler Jun 2013 #19
Wrong. ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #43
No, its not Unconstitutional. nt stevenleser Jun 2013 #46
That's what many people ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #48
That is not an argument. Plenty of laws are upheld as well. You have no basis for your assertions. stevenleser Jun 2013 #51
LOL ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #52
I know, you dont give a darn about the facts. You keep proving that over and over. nt stevenleser Jun 2013 #68
Unconstitutional = illegal even if it's a "law." JackRiddler Jun 2013 #16
Not really. The appeals courts rulings on this have said that as long as the target is a person or stevenleser Jun 2013 #22
You're mischaracterizing the entire issue. DirkGently Jun 2013 #60
No, I'm not. You don't understand what that means. stevenleser Jun 2013 #62
That's a mile of copypasta that says we have a FISA law. DirkGently Jun 2013 #115
No, no, and no. Your entire argument boils down to ignoring 60+ years of caselaw and stevenleser Jun 2013 #117
How then did the NSA break the law under both Bush & Obama? DirkGently Jun 2013 #118
"In the eye of the beholder" sibelian Jun 2013 #94
chef feinstein will reveal the meal as soon as the books are cooked enough nt msongs Jun 2013 #2
I think we'll get a bunch of paper with everything but the words "and" and "the" redacted. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2013 #69
after all the lies, why SHOULD we believe the intel industry now? grasswire Jun 2013 #3
please protect me from the terrorists markiv Jun 2013 #5
eh. SammyWinstonJack Jun 2013 #12
So it sounds like they're letting Snowden/Greenwald force their hand? Tsk, tsk... ;) reformist2 Jun 2013 #6
FBI initiated 17 attacks Eddie Haskell Jun 2013 #17
Maybe they should do both. hrmjustin Jun 2013 #32
Like a definitive list of all the pot smoking cancer grannies the patriot act has caught? Warren DeMontague Jun 2013 #23
Hmmmmmm well it didn't stop the Bostan bombings. nt Raine Jun 2013 #27
Nothing will stop everything....were you expecting something to? VanillaRhapsody Jun 2013 #35
No, I was being sarcastic. nt Raine Jun 2013 #121
DiFi is as dirty as they come Vinnie From Indy Jun 2013 #28
She is a vile piece of shit. Senator War Profiteer. That she chairs the intelligence committee is cali Jun 2013 #88
Look forward to hearing about this. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #29
Why? How would it make this attack on civil liberties any less vile? bowens43 Jun 2013 #55
I'm always willing to listen to someone's side of anything. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #56
You can note there is a real fear there about this information. It runs through responses to this OP stevenleser Jun 2013 #72
An ideology that is uncomfortable with mass snooping of noncriminal American's information? Scootaloo Jun 2013 #81
An ideology that depends on denial of facts & characterization of any contrary information as "lies" stevenleser Jun 2013 #105
Agreed. This fear of being wrong is really amazing to observe. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #99
It depends on what we're supposed to be listening to, sibelian Jun 2013 #95
Well we'll be listening to something of great interest to all of us. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #110
Oh great: Sen. Dianne Feinstein claims that we need to surrender our privacy. cpwm17 Jun 2013 #36
If the information is to be declassified, was it improperly classified from the start? DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #42
It doesnt matter whether or not it has stopped attacks bowens43 Jun 2013 #54
Right. We're told waterboarding & racial profiling work, too. DirkGently Jun 2013 #57
Senators Mark Udall and Ron Wyden call bullshit on claim metadata collection thwarted attacks Melinda Jun 2013 #61
Haven't you heard? Wyden and Udall are right wing shills. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2013 #71
Who said they are right wing shills? Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #86
I'll go with Wyden on this. hay rick Jun 2013 #75
Well, it sure stopped the Boston Marathon bombings The Second Stone Jun 2013 #74
You are demanding absolute 100% efficiency. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #109
It really doesn't matter to me whether it thwarted terror attacks or not. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #76
DiFi and Clapper...and CYA. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #77
Udall/Wyden say they have not seen any evidence NSA program has uniquely provided valuable intel dkf Jun 2013 #78
They stopped that criminal mastermind Doc_Technical Jun 2013 #80
Bullshit mick063 Jun 2013 #83
Spying upon, beating up and jailing Occupy Wall Street doesn't count. n/t Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #85
I stand with Feinstein 420superstoned420 Jun 2013 #87
Keep smoking. GeorgeGist Jun 2013 #89
WOW Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #91
Enjoy your stay. JHB Jun 2013 #111
Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2013 #114
So you think you've got the solution. It's not Democratic, is it? Judi Lynn Jun 2013 #119
The posts on this thread disgust me. I am no longer a democrat. This democratic party is liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #92
I'm sorry to hear that Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #93
Bye bye. sibelian Jun 2013 #96
So sad. Harmony Blue Jun 2013 #106
"locking up Japanese-Americans was effective, there were no incidents of sabotage" Spider Jerusalem Jun 2013 #98
If DiFi said it was raining, I'd go and open the door and look outside. hobbit709 Jun 2013 #100
The outraged demanded to see proof the program has worked ... now that it looks like JoePhilly Jun 2013 #102
No. We want proof of what they are collecting marions ghost Jun 2013 #120
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Want proof that NSA snoop...»Reply #62