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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
61. The SCOTUS may decide the program is unconstitutional, but
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:33 AM
Jun 2013

there is a strong chance they may side with the Government.

In a country where surveillance has been part of the fabric of law enforcement and national security, with the acknowledgment that it's a necessity, the debate is about how to do it while protecting Americans, classified information and the Constitution.

Subsequent to the Smith v. Maryland decision came the Electronic Communications Privacy Act
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023013882

The Clinton administration had to deal with these issues.

Statement of The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Before the Subcommittee on the Constitution
of the Committee on the Judiciary
United States House of Representatives
The Fourth Amendment and Carnivore
July 28, 2000


The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) would like to submit comments to be included for the record regarding the Fourth Amendment and the issues raised by the FBI's Carnivore system.

<...>

The Carnivore system has received a lot of press recently, but the FBI has not been forthcoming about how the Carnivore system actually works. Civil liberties groups have often been quoted as noting that Carnivore is a "black box" leaving us to guess at its inner workings.

<...>

Second, analogizing pen register information from a traditional land-line phone system to the Internet is incorrect. The Carnivore system likely can capture content as well as numbers. Email addresses for example are personal to an individual rather than to a particular household. We don't know for sure, but it is possible that Carnivore has access to the subject line information of email messages. Subject lines are content. For example, "leaving work at 5pm today - meet me at the bus stop", contains a lot of information about travel plans of a target on a particular day. Carnivore can also track other content information such as the URLs of web sites visited. Seeing the URLs not only give routing information but content as well. For example, someone visiting www.eff.org could presumably be interested in civil liberties issues online.

<...>

Currently, there is little if any public oversight over the FBI's use of its Carnivore system. The FBI has not allowed the ISP to inspect the device, nor have any of the advocacy groups been allowed to examine it. In fact, the ACLU has had to resort to filing a FOIA request to try to get at the source code. Allowing the FBI to install and use a device such as this unchecked by any public oversight, threatens the openness we enjoy and expect in our society. Robert Corn-Revere, in his testimony, noted that his case is sealed. We can't even look to that for guidance.

- more -

http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Carnivore/20000728_eff_house_carnivore.html


FBI Still Hunting With Carnivore

By Margret Johnston, PCWorld
Oct 20, 2000 7:00 AM

The U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation is still developing its Carnivore Internet surveillance tool, according to FBI documents obtained by the Electronic Privacy Information Center through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.

<...>

EPIC filed the FOIA lawsuit after the FBI earlier this year revealed the existence of Carnivore. The lawsuit seeks the public release of all FBI records concerning Carnivore, including the source code, other technical details, and legal analyses addressing the potential privacy implications of the technology. The source code of the Carnivore system was withheld in the first batch of documents (see "Does Carnivore Eat Privacy Rights?&quot .

Carnivore has outraged not only EPIC, but also the American Civil Liberties Union and some members of Congress. The FBI has used it in at least 25 criminal and national security investigations, according to the FBI, which maintains the system is legal.

The documents in EPIC's hands also confirm that Carnivore was conceived under the name Omnivore in February 1997. It was proposed originally for a Solaris X86 computer. Omnivore was replaced by Carnivore running on a Windows NT-based computer in June 1999. Other parts of the documents include reviews of tests for performance, and recovery from attacks and crashes for both Omnivore and Carnivore. Carnivore consists of a PC running Windows and proprietary software.

- more -

http://www.pcworld.com/article/32664/article.html


Group Objects to F.B.I. Release of Carnivore Information

ASHINGTON -- A civil liberties group objects to how the FBI plans to release to the public some of the 3,000 pages of documents describing its ``Carnivore'' e-mail surveillance system.

The group says the schedule laid out by the government is too open-ended.

The Justice Department told a federal judge Wednesday that the FBI had located 3,000 pages in response to a Freedom of Information request and lawsuit by the group, the Electronic Privacy Information Center, which asked for every document the FBI has describing the computerized system that has raised an uproar among civil libertarians and in Congress.

<...>

At her weekly news conference Thursday, Attorney General Janet Reno declined to predict how long the entire process might take. ``There's some 3,000 pages that we have got to go through, and we want to do it as expeditiously as possible but we want to do it properly,'' she said.

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/08/biztech/articles/18carnivore.html


Major University to Be Asked to Review F.B.I.'s 'Carnivore'

ASHINGTON, Aug. 10 -- The Justice Department will ask a major university to review a government e-mail surveillance program that is seen as both a great boon to law enforcement and a serious threat to the people's privacy.

Attorney General Janet Reno said the program, used by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and dubbed "Carnivore" because it can quickly gobble up and digest huge quantities of e-mail messages, will be studied in depth, and that the university's recommendations will be shared with the public.

"The university review team will have total access to any information they need," Ms. Reno pledged.

Top Justice Department officials will work with the university representatives and seek comment from law enforcement and privacy experts, Ms. Reno said. She will weigh the results before the department determines how Carnivore will be used in the future.

- more -

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/08/biztech/articles/11cnd-carnivore.html

'Carnivore': FBI's Internet Wiretaps Raise Privacy Concerns
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/071200-03.htm

After prolonged negative coverage in the press, the FBI changed the name of its system from "Carnivore" to the more benign-sounding "DCS1000." DCS is reported to stand for "Digital Collection System"; the system has the same functions as before. The Associated Press reported in mid-January 2005 that the FBI essentially abandoned the use of Carnivore in 2001, in favor of commercially available software, such as NarusInsight (a mass surveillance system).[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(software)#Controversy


This is a situation in which a balance has to be struck between Constitutionality, national security, privacy and the need to know.

It's not a cut-and-dry issue like gay rights or voting rights. Equality period!

Report: Yahoo Challenged PRISM In 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023015163

Also, think about the current SCOTUS. There is a strong chance that the SCOTUS will side with the Government.

CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, ET AL. v. AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL USA ET AL.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/11-1025_ihdj.pdf

Court Challenge To NSA Surveillance Programs Moves Forward
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023009232

If the Court decides the program is unconstitutional, then Congress is going to act at some point to find the right balance, and everyone knows the sausage-making process involved in writing and passing laws.

Senators: End Secret Law
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022993363

Here's the text of Alan Grayson's Mind Your Own Business Act

AMENDMENT TO THE RULES COMMITTEE PRINT
OF H.R. 1960
OFFERED BY MR. GRAYSON OF FLORIDA
Page 432, after line 21, insert the following:

SEC. 1065. LIMITATION ON AVAILABILITY OF FUNDS FOR INFORMATION GATHERING ON CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES WHILE LOCATED IN THE UNITED STATES WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE.

(a) PROHIBITION.—None of the funds authorized to be appropriated or otherwise made available to the Department of Defense for fiscal year 2014 or any succeeding fiscal year may be used to collect any information generated by a citizen of the United States while located in the United States, including telephone records, internet records, and physical location information, without probable cause of a terrorism offense or an offense within the jurisdiction of the Uniform Code of Military Justice related to action or conduct by that citizen.

(b) UNITED STATES.—In this section, the term ‘‘United States’’ means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

http://amendments-rules.house.gov/amendments/GRAYSO_13461113220425425.pdf


Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Al Gore is not a real Democrat. He said he invented the internet & that is a proven lie. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #1
Sooner or later someone's going to post that in earnest Catherina Jun 2013 #3
Well, they trashed Alan Grayson and praised Peter 'we-count-the-votes) King, so you're probably sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #5
That was terrible Catherina Jun 2013 #8
Am I in the wrong place? kentuck Jun 2013 #27
look at the threads that are recommended-- you're in the right place carolinayellowdog Jun 2013 #39
Lol, of course you are. "Al Gore is not a real Democrat" is satire equal to Catherina Jun 2013 #51
The 'Big Tent' felix_numinous Jun 2013 #79
It's a bunch of think tank whiz kids looking to usurp the site IMHO. Paid shills. grahamhgreen Jun 2013 #92
Highly likely, IMO /nt Dragonfli Jun 2013 #96
+1000 Fearless Jun 2013 #99
It's Like we suddenly went to Freeperville somehow. Katashi_itto Jun 2013 #102
I'm afraid there was no turn in particular. JackRiddler Jun 2013 #115
Yet, people trashed Bill Clinton yesterday. I guess it's selective, isn't it. graham4anything Jun 2013 #28
Bill Clinton does not equal Al Gore choie Jun 2013 #42
Bill Clinton was President for 8 years and took the same smears as President Obama. graham4anything Jun 2013 #44
Not if the Democratic Party splits caseymoz Jun 2013 #69
1968 all the protesters accomplished was to elect Nixon once LBJ was tossed into the sea. graham4anything Jun 2013 #81
The surveillance program isn't so easy caseymoz Jun 2013 #84
You need to read up on the 1980 election blackspade Jun 2013 #97
Wait a minute. Are you trying to suggest QC Jun 2013 #60
shocking, ain't it choie Jun 2013 #67
for trying to get us into another war MNBrewer Jun 2013 #113
Here's David Michael Green on Peter King bread_and_roses Jun 2013 #108
Yep. It's a cryin' shame what people will swallow Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #6
It was brilliant sarcasm. Or satire rather. It's a good thing we all know you Catherina Jun 2013 #9
Thank you for the assist. I like you a lot! Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #15
Anytime my friend Catherina Jun 2013 #71
Hong Kong Al! It's very interesting that he said he invented the internet! Has anyone sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #4
ARRRRGH. sibelian Jun 2013 #17
It's all good. xoxo. Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #19
Me too. kentuck Jun 2013 #29
That was snarky? Catherina Jun 2013 #52
Not only that but he's overweight, too, Seeking Serenity Jun 2013 #30
Next to a pitbull that is smoking Aerows Jun 2013 #34
! See post 73 - "I am a pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity." Catherina Jun 2013 #72
LMFAO Aerows Jun 2013 #75
Not to take this thread too far out there but 2 poems by d.h.rumsfeld Catherina Jun 2013 #77
He's no TS Eliot, Dragonfli Jun 2013 #83
Love me some TS Eliot. zeemike Jun 2013 #91
. Dragonfli Jun 2013 #95
Al Gore was in the senate at the time and he pushed bills that funded DARPA. Neoma Jun 2013 #41
Hi sis! Catherina Jun 2013 #53
He sighs too-- Jackpine Radical Jun 2013 #55
And why did he have to hire a woman to coach him QC Jun 2013 #62
You forget Love Canal. Jackpine Radical Jun 2013 #68
No he didn't danbeee46 Jun 2013 #89
That's a proven LIE! Check snopes. tblue Jun 2013 #117
But but but we've been assured by latrine-educated Constitutional Experts here that that Catherina Jun 2013 #2
"OH, well if AL GORE says it it MUST be true, huh? sibelian Jun 2013 #18
The same guy who took money from Buddhists at their temple, and then claimed that there was no Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #24
Link? Aerows Jun 2013 #26
This happened in 1996. Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #31
Well Aerows Jun 2013 #32
Well, it was much more than just those incidents that caused Gore to crash and burn. Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #35
My point still stands. n/t Aerows Jun 2013 #36
In truth, Gore was correct. reusrename Jun 2013 #85
! See post 73: "I think we all agree, the past is over." Catherina Jun 2013 #74
Oh MY.... KoKo Jun 2013 #38
'The language of the 4th Amendement is crystal clear'! Thank you Al. sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #7
Or Misunderestimated? Whatever. Just MAKE THE PIE HIGHER! Catherina Jun 2013 #73
And 'catapult the propaganda' sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #78
I love the poetry posts, thanks! bananas Jun 2013 #82
Thank you Pres. Gore. But you'll remember the people falling all over themselves to.... Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #10
All I remember about Al Gore is that he wore warm tones. What do you remember? Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #12
He made out with his wife at the convention... fujiyama Jun 2013 #118
Kick for the OP, and Catherina and Sabrina - women who never shirk from keeping their Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #11
Thank you Luminous :) And kick for you and all the other fighters here who do the same Catherina Jun 2013 #50
knr Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #13
Precisely Sherman A1 Jun 2013 #14
Good on Gore's part to step up think Jun 2013 #16
. blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #20
I wonder... ReRe Jun 2013 #21
Yay for President Gore! nt Enthusiast Jun 2013 #22
he never loved Big Brother carolinayellowdog Jun 2013 #23
k and r nashville_brook Jun 2013 #25
Another disloyal Greenwaldian dissenter! Buuuuurn him! DirkGently Jun 2013 #33
I think Al needs to have a close door session with those who actually know the specifics. DCBob Jun 2013 #37
Have YOU had a closed door session with those who "KNOW?" KoKo Jun 2013 #40
no but I had some interactions with those that have. DCBob Jun 2013 #47
That's the problem, right there. DirkGently Jun 2013 #46
Surely you see the legitimate conflicting issues of personal rights and national security. DCBob Jun 2013 #48
Obama called that a "false choice." DirkGently Jun 2013 #49
The "false choice" is that we can only have one or the other.. DCBob Jun 2013 #87
It's got nothing to do with keeping American's safer - Perhaps you should try reading a bit TakeALeftTurn Jun 2013 #58
Im sure I could find dozens of other national security experts would disagree with that. DCBob Jun 2013 #88
I am SURE you could TakeALeftTurn Jun 2013 #90
The very same politicians that claim we need to give up our privacy for national security cpwm17 Jun 2013 #65
You draw the line to always favor personal rights. It's really simple, really. TransitJohn Jun 2013 #109
Sure, but you still have to draw a line where they conflict. DCBob Jun 2013 #110
Um, he was Vice President for eight years. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #94
Things have changed since 9/11, FISA, etc. DCBob Jun 2013 #100
Any one think this Supreme Court would agree? jbond56 Jun 2013 #43
Let's see what the courts think treestar Jun 2013 #45
has not lost his moral compass unlike some fellow Democrats carolinayellowdog Jun 2013 #54
Ah hurd he ate a sea bass once. DirkGently Jun 2013 #56
Many here are finding that in "Inconvenient Truth". Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #57
OMG! Al Gore is an agent of the ChiComs! QC Jun 2013 #59
The SCOTUS may decide the program is unconstitutional, but ProSense Jun 2013 #61
I can't agree with this statement: blackspade Jun 2013 #98
Inconvenient Truth bobduca Jun 2013 #63
Now THIS is someone DonCoquixote Jun 2013 #64
Gore is a product of the racist south markiv Jun 2013 #66
All these responses are killing me. Well at least we saved them the trouble Catherina Jun 2013 #76
lol allin99 Jun 2013 #86
Republicans are strict constructionists too bucolic_frolic Jun 2013 #70
Indeed it does. Daniel537 Jun 2013 #80
But, but Al we've been told it was legal! former9thward Jun 2013 #93
B-b-but it's after 9-11. That means things are Different! backscatter712 Jun 2013 #111
ALlow me to the the first to employ Godwin's law. What took you so long? BlueStreak Jun 2013 #101
How tragic it is to actually read a thread on DU and consider how much substance it contains. Coyotl Jun 2013 #103
care to translate that into English? cali Jun 2013 #104
How tragic it is to actually read a thread on DU and consider how much substance it contains. Coyotl Jun 2013 #105
babble bullshit. do learn how to write simple sentence that makes just a wee bit of sense. cali Jun 2013 #106
What's tragic is what New Dems, Blue Dogs, DLC-Third Wayers are doing to the party. Fuddnik Jun 2013 #116
Kick & recommended. William769 Jun 2013 #107
Just out of curiosity AL...what EXACTLY is YOUR solution? SoapBox Jun 2013 #112
But, but, but ... it's okay when Obama does it. davidwparker Jun 2013 #114
If Gore really believes this then why isnt he challenging it before SCOTUS to put the whole thing to cstanleytech Jun 2013 #119
NSA program violates constituition? well, no shit sherlock RedstDem Jun 2013 #120
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