General Discussion

ucrdem

(15,720 posts)

204. I was elaborating a little on your first point.

Sun Jun 16, 2013, 01:44 PM

Jun 2013

I agree with you that the security apparatus grew alarmingly under Bush-Cheney, and the outsourcing is disgraceful pork, also dangerous for the reasons you cite. However, I disagree that GG and Snowden did anything more than demagogue, i.e. stir up popular outrage, and for nefarious RW purposes, one being to "Dem-wash" the permanent evil empire erected by Bushco. Obama has to defend it, and therefore (quoth the haters) he owns it. We've seen this before, e.g. on Guantanamo, drones, etc.

The other thing that strikes me is that Snowden's noble words have zilch to do with what he was actually up to, i.e. slipping classified intel to the Chinese at the moment Obama was preparing to meet new Chinese President Xi Jinping in a US-China summit held last weekend in California:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014502822

WTF kind of hero is that?

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Naomi Wolf calls bullshit on the Snowden story [View all] ucrdem Jun 2013 OP

file under crazy as a shithouse rat. cali Jun 2013 #1

She's right about the interviews, one of which I heard on Democracy Now ucrdem Jun 2013 #6

oh my word. could you employ just a modicum of critical thinking? cali Jun 2013 #11

I don't agree with her conclusions, but I do agree with her observations. ucrdem Jun 2013 #14

her observations are flat out ridiculous. cali Jun 2013 #21

It also occurred to me that a stage-managed leak is a possibility, but I don't see any real leveymg Jun 2013 #47

Unless he's an operative or spy for a non-US intel service. ucrdem Jun 2013 #50

How is this really undermining Obama and the Dems in a way that would help, say, Jeb or Rand? leveymg Jun 2013 #54

Here are two specific ways it undermines Obama on an international stage: ucrdem Jun 2013 #66

1) Nothing was going to come of that issue with China, anyway - both sides knew what the other is leveymg Jun 2013 #78

I thought it was clear, but here goes: NSA-gate weakens his popular support ucrdem Jun 2013 #83

But, the rest of the world is now trumpeting that the US is again "engaging in dumb wars" leveymg Jun 2013 #89

I guess we disagree. It seems patently obvious to me. ucrdem Jun 2013 #94

It's okay to disagree. leveymg Jun 2013 #239

It is not a "possibility" it is a reality. reusrename Jun 2013 #126

"while she is dogged in her pursuit of information that doesn't mean she has an agenda" leveymg Jun 2013 #236

Ah yes, I see, two meanings. reusrename Jun 2013 #238

Not a U.S. plant, a Rand Paul plant, the Tea Party campaign for 2016. Coyotl Jun 2013 #19

Exactly. ucrdem Jun 2013 #23

Your sig line is a mini-blog Kolesar Jun 2013 #56

Agreed. It's almost as if they're here just to muckrake. Hmmm.... nt okaawhatever Jun 2013 #129

Edit: might have misread that, sorry. ucrdem Jun 2013 #132

I wasn't referring to you specifically. There are many who only seem to show up when something bad okaawhatever Jun 2013 #143

Thanks, yes I just realized I'd misread your post, sorry about that. ucrdem Jun 2013 #146

More ad hominem attacks BlueStreak Jun 2013 #26

that's got to be photoshopped ArcticFox Jun 2013 #148

Something looks awfully suspicious. ucrdem Jun 2013 #149

Dude, you are going down the rabbit hole. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2013 #195

Careless use of a polarizing filter pscot Jun 2013 #242

She DOES have a nice backstory, doesn't she? randome Jun 2013 #182

She does indeedy ucrdem Jun 2013 #189

But, Cali you must admit that his personality, the way he comes across Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #8

by what standards? look, naomi wolf's "theory" is shithouse crazy conspiracy crap cali Jun 2013 #16

I'm not talking about Wolf. I'm talking about the way the guy comes off. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #29

So you are saying he sounds TOO credible, ergo he must be lying!? BlueStreak Jun 2013 #39

The opposite. He's hyperbolic and dramatic. He comes across as staged and therefore Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #243

I don't deny he's a drama queen, with an inflated ego. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #246

He sets off alarm bells. aquart Jun 2013 #270

one thing I've learned in life, is that people can tell fibs about this or that and be truthful cali Jun 2013 #40

Evidence of Snowden's accuracy Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #109

It's already being walked back and disowned. randome Jun 2013 #115

You were at a secret meeting? HooptieWagon Jun 2013 #152

The text of the article does not support the headline. randome Jun 2013 #155

Yes, Nadler took it back, Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #220

Booze-Allen-Hamilton contractors are listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants. Blue State Bandit Jun 2013 #177

file under these suspicion appeared on DU right away, with far more substance! Coyotl Jun 2013 #13

Let's see--Naomi Wolf--or Keyboard Warrior Cali? trumad Jun 2013 #22

feel free. but it's hardly just me cali Jun 2013 #34

Let's see...Psycholical Anallise of someone Wolf does not know zeemike Jun 2013 #48

well thanks. we're just going with basic common sense here. cali Jun 2013 #63

You and me, Trumad. loudsue Jun 2013 #76

Agreed - since when is she a psychologist??? Cooley Hurd Jun 2013 #30

no she's not. I've never been able to understand why she's held in high esteem on the left. cali Jun 2013 #35

Agreed. Didn't realize she was this crazy. nt LittleBlue Jun 2013 #171

Why are we still doing ad hominem attacks on Snowden? BlueStreak Jun 2013 #2

The 'issues' are flat out wrong. He has shown us no evidence of his claims. randome Jun 2013 #5

Have you been in a cave for the past 2 weeks? BlueStreak Jun 2013 #17

What has Snowden revealed that wasn't on DU years ago? Coyotl Jun 2013 #25

The Verizon warrant, for one thing. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #32

Revealing a "warrant" pales to the fact that we knew everything was scooped without warrant! Coyotl Jun 2013 #42

When Obama shut down the Bush warrantless wiretaps, a reasonable person would have assumed BlueStreak Jun 2013 #184

You are quite mistaken. Coyotl Jun 2013 #225

Nonetheles, the NSA under BOTH Bush and Obama continues to operate exactly as before BlueStreak Jun 2013 #230

The woman doing the documentary has released this info before. She had already announced that the okaawhatever Jun 2013 #141

Tell that to the government, the whole M$M, and the rest of the world usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #73

See post # 25 Coyotl Jun 2013 #80

He revealed that the government is HARVESTING & STORING ALL US DIGITAL/PHONE COMMUNICATIONS usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #87

I guess you are new to DU Coyotl Jun 2013 #223

So you're in the MNBrewer Jun 2013 #167

There is never any point to rep[lying to posts like yours because Coyotl Jun 2013 #224

Funny you use the word 'claimed' so often yet fail to appreciate its meaning. randome Jun 2013 #27

The NSA Powerpoint says as much, and this is still a point of dispute BlueStreak Jun 2013 #36

The PowerPoint slide? A gross misinterpretation by Snowden and Greenwald. randome Jun 2013 #41

Please show me any place where Snowden accused the NSA of not following the law. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #49

Except he has not done what you claimed. randome Jun 2013 #52

Unconstitutional on the face of it? Um, yes (this rational person disagrees with you). truebluegreen Jun 2013 #191

FISA has been secretive since its inception in 1979. randome Jun 2013 #193

I know it has. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #197

"Lockbox" or direct line to NSA, a distinction without a difference except to a lawyer. leveymg Jun 2013 #61

How do you transfer information from one site to another? randome Jun 2013 #65

You're playing semantical games and frantically waving that stinky red-herring around. leveymg Jun 2013 #68

You have no idea if that's being done. randome Jun 2013 #70

He's shown us the slides. You haven't shown squat to the contrary leveymg Jun 2013 #81

There is a HUGE difference between... randome Jun 2013 #85

Doesn't make sense Chathamization Jun 2013 #176

No, I'm saying that those servers are likely secure FTP servers. randome Jun 2013 #179

Pure speculation Chathamization Jun 2013 #190

The speculation at this point is all Snowden's. randome Jun 2013 #192

Regret what? Chathamization Jun 2013 #194

It's a misleading term on the PowerPoint slide. randome Jun 2013 #198

It's a distinction that it seems like everyone has trouble with Chathamization Jun 2013 #219

I get you. Then again, it's PowerPoint. randome Jun 2013 #222

This is like 'Obama is a Muslim' Whisp Jun 2013 #135

I don't buy Wolf's contention that Snowden is a plant of any kind. randome Jun 2013 #140

I think there is someone else involved Whisp Jun 2013 #147

No, just that Greenwald said he was talking to Snowden in February... randome Jun 2013 #151

Now that would be the big question to put to Greenwald, wouldn't it? Whisp Jun 2013 #161

That is flat out BULLSHIT, and that discrepancy was addressed in Greenwald's original article usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #93

Direct access to FTP servers. Not at all what Greenwald & Snowden wanted us to believe. randome Jun 2013 #96

More Bullshit! WTF Right At the Top of the Original Greenwald Article it points out the discrepancy usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #102

These folks apparently don't realize that even Greenwald has hedged on that slide BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #108

But even with the most nefarious interpretations of any of it... randome Jun 2013 #112

This issue has become a rage funnel for many here BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #120

Yeah, poor things.. it's like debating this.. Cha Jun 2013 #211

They have presented proof, WTF do you think everyone is reacting to on the hill, & around the world? usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #125

I suppose if you can't fool the world, Marr Jun 2013 #157

exactly, as they are the only ones they are fooling usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #163

You're the ones being paid treestar Jun 2013 #174

He did NOT 'hedge' he called it out at the TOP of his original article. usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #124

And, if they did know.. unfortunately don't care. nm Cha Jun 2013 #213

Doesn't it look to you like the names added to the top of the slide were added after the fact? okaawhatever Jun 2013 #153

They look like the kinda internal docs cobbled together by non-graphic designers that are ubiquitous usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #158

The documents authenticity has not been disputed by the government usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #79

Sure, and that's why the government is reacting usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #71

What vitriol? You mean Boehner calling Snowden a traitor? randome Jun 2013 #74

He isn't the only one, and you know it. usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #84

Soerry, but it DOES matter what country he goes to NT 7962 Jun 2013 #15

Why? Does that make any of his claims any less true? BlueStreak Jun 2013 #20

If he can't stand the heat he shouldn't have come forward treestar Jun 2013 #169

I think the 'talking points' are only those he has created for himself. randome Jun 2013 #3

Well, Greenwald is an attorney. ucrdem Jun 2013 #7

I'd forgotten that. randome Jun 2013 #9

It makes sense that the attorney would be prepping him for his closeups. ucrdem Jun 2013 #18

You imagine lots of things. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #31

This is only a guessing game temmer Jun 2013 #4

+ quite a bit. well said. cali Jun 2013 #24

And suspect as he went to the media who know a thing or 2 about presentation usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #117

A preemptive, controlled, and then "discredited" leak? Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #10

I think she might be overanalyzing. reformist2 Jun 2013 #12

Naomi Wolf is not Naomi Klein. Quantess Jun 2013 #28

Why do you think people are confusing the two women? Does that make Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #33

People confuse them here all the time. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #37

Well, actually, it does. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #38

I don't think musings equal facts and her article Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #240

Okay, but, you just mixed up the Naomis, right there! Quantess Jun 2013 #255

Yes, I know the difference. You misread. Those were two different thoughts. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #256

And I am just as aware as you are Quantess Jun 2013 #258

Didn't say you we're stupid. I'm telling you that I know well the different Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #262

In other words. is your name cellophane Quantess Jun 2013 #260

I don't get it. Unless you're tall, dark, SINGLE, and smart... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #261

Yes, people definitely confuse Naomi Wolf and Naomi Klein every time one of them is mentioned. Quantess Jun 2013 #118

I have to admit, I often confuse them when I read the names. Marr Jun 2013 #159

Who is more credible, Wolf or Klein? reusrename Jun 2013 #168

True I have done that in the past davidpdx Jun 2013 #44

Yes, davidpdx, most of us have an easy time mixing them up. Quantess Jun 2013 #122

Here's what Google/wiki say about Naomi Wolf: ucrdem Jun 2013 #64

Cue the assassination of Naomi Wolf davidpdx Jun 2013 #43

cue the fucking melodrama, hon. oh wait, you already brought in a truckload of that shit. cali Jun 2013 #45

No, I think you have that covered all by yourself davidpdx Jun 2013 #58

Interesting how you clipped points d. and h. which even her critics acknowledge have merit.... Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #46

So you think the right wing machine would put this story out when they were already dominating BlueStreak Jun 2013 #51

mughba dunnnaa kxnmhh <- Me trying to talk with your words in my mouth Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #55

Reporter gate is part of this nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #88

I don't agree with "D," and "H" is mistaken since GG is an attorney, ucrdem Jun 2013 #53

H is mistaken because the investigative reporter is an attorney???? Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #57

Greenwald is an attorney, yes. nt ucrdem Jun 2013 #67

Just to be clear, you're joking, right? Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #69

How many times are you going to ask this question? nt ucrdem Jun 2013 #77

Here's Markos Moulitsas' profile at CATO: Hissyspit Jun 2013 #119

KOS is at least trying to drum up votes for Democrats. ucrdem Jun 2013 #127

And Greenwald is trying to stop the horrific abuses of the War on Drugs. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #156

Thank you for highlighting points D and H suffragette Jun 2013 #150

Did you ever think that maybe it is Wolf that is the "operative"? Vinnie From Indy Jun 2013 #59

lol an earthtoned operative cali Jun 2013 #62

Possibly. Now the NSA knows exactly who disagrees with them Generic Brad Jun 2013 #123

Naomi Wolf has written for the Guardian. JoeyT Jun 2013 #60

According to your links she's also a Rhodes scholar and Huffpo writer: ucrdem Jun 2013 #75

how in hell would you or wolf know what an operative of some sort looks/sounds/acts like? cali Jun 2013 #137

You're assuming they have brain cells.... HooptieWagon Jun 2013 #164

Snowden is bait on a fishing line. hunter Jun 2013 #72

She's not the first commentator to mention that there is something Cleita Jun 2013 #82

Thanks Cleita, ucrdem Jun 2013 #97

I too think Snowden stinks. timdog44 Jun 2013 #86

There's a too-long tradition of beating down uncomfortable ideas with over-the-top put downs... Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #91

If I take what you are referring timdog44 Jun 2013 #201

second paragraph... Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #205

I then suppose you agree with what I was saying. timdog44 Jun 2013 #208

Yes, his speeches make us angry ucrdem Jun 2013 #116

Help me please. timdog44 Jun 2013 #202

I was elaborating a little on your first point. ucrdem Jun 2013 #204

Yes, I think I am agreeing with you. timdog44 Jun 2013 #210

Link please to proof he has sold info to the Chinese. snagglepuss Jun 2013 #214

Here's a five-in-one: ucrdem Jun 2013 #218

No proof he's sold anything nor proof he disclosed anything other than snagglepuss Jun 2013 #226

Fine, let's say he procured them. ucrdem Jun 2013 #231

Naomi Wolf? ReRe Jun 2013 #90

Naomi Wolf is just another fascist enabler. baldguy Jun 2013 #92

I'll bet she secretly voted for Obama. ucrdem Jun 2013 #100

Damn you Snowden! How dare you! JackRiddler Jun 2013 #95

So where did he get his "architecture of surveillance" line? ucrdem Jun 2013 #98

Words! This high school dropout presumes to use words! Big ones! JackRiddler Jun 2013 #101

Here's two for you, coincidence theorist. nt ucrdem Jun 2013 #104

And speaking of co-inkydinks: Whom could Republicans just NOT bear as SOS, but ended up at patrice Jun 2013 #257

a 29 year old high school drop out who sounds like a high priced lawyer on TV NoMoreWarNow Jun 2013 #106

Thanks for the disgusting dose of class prejudice. JackRiddler Jun 2013 #183

Ahem, the Shax avatar does not exactly scream working class solidarity. ucrdem Jun 2013 #187

Shax? JackRiddler Jun 2013 #196

"I don't trust the NSA at all" and neither do I trust spooks. NoMoreWarNow Jun 2013 #266

Sure... JackRiddler Jun 2013 #267

fair enough... NoMoreWarNow Jun 2013 #269

I think she is speculating by way of precaution. freedom fighter jh Jun 2013 #99

Hong Kong is not exactly China. ucrdem Jun 2013 #103

So he sang to an allied intel agency and a junior partner nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #107

Yes, I'm sure they're all one big brethren. ucrdem Jun 2013 #113

Actually yes, yes they are nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #145

Cognitive dissonance at it's best nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #105

I think you mean "its." ucrdem Jun 2013 #110

From the poster who spelled "Gaurdian" wrong several times last week, Hissyspit Jun 2013 #160

So nice that you noticed. ucrdem Jun 2013 #165

Cognition is a great deal more about dissonance than many wish us to pretend that is. patrice Jun 2013 #259

Bullshit! caseymoz Jun 2013 #111

Naomi Wolf isn't claiming that anything Snowden said is false. Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #114

That's where I part company with her. ucrdem Jun 2013 #121

Who wants Snowden to transmit talking points Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #206

Good question. Wouldn't one of the last things that Susan Rice would have managed patrice Jun 2013 #263

Sounds like a South Park episode to me n/t usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #133

I've noticed some oddities too, but its not central to the conversation. napoleon_in_rags Jun 2013 #128

It seems that the bigger problem is that a "private firm" has this kind of access to anything we do. world wide wally Jun 2013 #130

I'm not convinced Snowden had the access he claimed. randome Jun 2013 #136

I have no opinion about Snowden, but Naomi Wolf is batshit crazy, so who cares what she says? (n/t) MadrasT Jun 2013 #131

Implication here. Madmiddle Jun 2013 #134

She does a lot of speculating on his motives but doesn't refute what he revealed. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #138

Exactly. NT Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #251

The character assassination of Lindsay Mills in the media really bothers me Jarla Jun 2013 #139

I agree completely with that. randome Jun 2013 #142

The fact that slut-shaming has become part of the Snowden smear DirkGently Jun 2013 #162

I find it a bit ironic that a self-proclaimed feminist is participating in the slut-shaming Jarla Jun 2013 #178

Apparently we're learning a lot, very quickly. DirkGently Jun 2013 #188

Welcome to DU, and you raise a good point. (n/t) spooky3 Jun 2013 #215

Thanks! :) Jarla Jun 2013 #221

LOL. Yes, Snowden must be dismissed because of his "unusual stagecraft." PSPS Jun 2013 #144

He's also known to listen to bad music & pay tolls DirkGently Jun 2013 #170

And the same cadre of smear campaign posters... HooptieWagon Jun 2013 #172

One could easily conclude the same about the Obama detractors, ucrdem Jun 2013 #175

Yes, some disapprove of Obama's performance. Therefore, domestic spying is OK. Is that how it goes? PSPS Jun 2013 #216

That's a good point. Marr Jun 2013 #229

It's possible, of course, but this seems awfully thin to me. Marr Jun 2013 #154

wag the dog ellennelle Jun 2013 #166

Let's arm al-qaeda in Syria! usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #180

you must be young ellennelle Jun 2013 #209

at heart, but I do believe that "wag the dog" refers to a war who's sole purpose is to distract usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #212

no; methinks 'wag the dog' means... ellennelle Jun 2013 #244

. Didn't realize she was this crazy. LittleBlue Jun 2013 #173

I think she knows a lot about the craft and is simply projecting usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #185

And the hero-worshippers attack Wolf for her observations that raise questions railsback Jun 2013 #181

This isn't a matter of left and right. Marr Jun 2013 #232

She isn't giving testimony in a trial, she's blogging her observations of Snowden. ucrdem Jun 2013 #233

I know, and he has boxes in his garage, too. Marr Jun 2013 #234

I'd say the timing is what's really relevant here. ucrdem Jun 2013 #235

Honestly, I find the timing suspicious as well. Marr Jun 2013 #237

There are international conferences every month. NT Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #253

Most of her "opinion" is just uninformed ignorance. reusrename Jun 2013 #241

Greenwald is not a "CATO Libertarian." Hissyspit Jun 2013 #248

Like Snowden offering up empty evidence? railsback Jun 2013 #268

"hero-worshippers attack for observations that raise questions" Hissyspit Jun 2013 #250

Is there any way for the 1% to substantially gain more wealth/power/control as a Zorra Jun 2013 #186

If the Patriot Act is repealed... Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #207

Don't hold your breath waitng for the Patriot Act to get repealed. Zorra Jun 2013 #249

I pretty much on the side of Snowden but am always willing to entertain doubt. snagglepuss Jun 2013 #217

I had similar thoughts about Snowden agent46 Jun 2013 #199

Next up: The secret NSA directive to impose Sharia Law on us all! randome Jun 2013 #200

Or Snowden has put some thought into his message think Jun 2013 #203

"Missed it by that much". Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #227

Yea because we absolutely MUST felix_numinous Jun 2013 #228

The pole-dancing girlfriend has got to be the most baffling part of this whole equation Number23 Jun 2013 #245

It shows Snowden's sacrifice. Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #252

So a guy in his thirties with a $200K salary and a hot girlfriend.... decides to throw it all away DontTreadOnMe Jun 2013 #264

Are you saying that Ed Snowden was authorized to leak Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #265

Interesting take on the situation thanks for posting /nt jimlup Jun 2013 #247

Dear Naomi... MrMickeysMom Jun 2013 #254