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In reply to the discussion: #Snowden: Last Word For Today, and It's For You, DU... [View all]Maedhros
(10,007 posts)52. If there's room under the bus for David Sirota
I'll post a link to an article today on Salon discussing exactly why the surveillance program is problematic:
link:http://www.salon.com/2013/06/17/were_all_terrorist_suspects_now/
Thus, when the NSA is successful in getting such a warrant from the FISA court, both the agency and the court are implicitly asserting that such a warrant meets the constitutions Fourth Amendment requirement that warrants are only issued when there is probable cause.
That requirement, of course, is not vague. Unlike many other amendments that deliberately left wiggle room for ongoing interpretation, the Constitutions Fourth Amendment is inarguably set in stone in declaring that in the United States no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause. The inflexibility of that language was no accident colonists backlash to the British monarchys use of general no-cause warrants was one of the main factors sparking the American Revolution. Consequently, as the Electronic Frontier Foundation shows, the founders sculpted the constitution to explicitly outlaw those boundless, no-cause general warrants.
That requirement, of course, is not vague. Unlike many other amendments that deliberately left wiggle room for ongoing interpretation, the Constitutions Fourth Amendment is inarguably set in stone in declaring that in the United States no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause. The inflexibility of that language was no accident colonists backlash to the British monarchys use of general no-cause warrants was one of the main factors sparking the American Revolution. Consequently, as the Electronic Frontier Foundation shows, the founders sculpted the constitution to explicitly outlaw those boundless, no-cause general warrants.
Sirota quotes Rep. Grayson from his congressional floor speech:
According to their published statements, including a statement by their Director last Saturday, they maintain that its legal because of a single Supreme Court case decided in 1979 that said that the government, specifically local police authorities, could acquire the phone records of one person once
Because the Supreme Court says that, at that point, the government could acquire the phone records of one person once, the NSA is maintaining that its entire program is legal and that it can acquire the phone records of everyone, everywhere, forever. That is a farce.
The heart of the matter:
Put another way, NSA defenders argument that the FISA courts mass-surveillance warrants comply with the Fourth Amendment boils down to this: no matter who we are or what we do, the government has probable cause to automatically consider all of us suspects all the time.
Is such a perpetual population-wide presumption of criminality legitimate? Does the executive branch really have ongoing probable cause to view the entire citizenry as potential criminals worthy of judiciary-sanctioned surveillance? These are some of the huge questions that the Supreme Court has used technicalities to try to avoid.
Similarly, they are questions that Obama officials dont want to have to answer, likely because they (in part) dont want to have to argue in public that yes, they believe all Americans should be considered suspects and that therefore the government has probable cause for surveillance. They dont want to publicly make such an argument because they know it would almost certainly be politically unpopular. This may be one of the reasons the administration has fought to keep its legal rationale for such surveillance secret.
Is such a perpetual population-wide presumption of criminality legitimate? Does the executive branch really have ongoing probable cause to view the entire citizenry as potential criminals worthy of judiciary-sanctioned surveillance? These are some of the huge questions that the Supreme Court has used technicalities to try to avoid.
Similarly, they are questions that Obama officials dont want to have to answer, likely because they (in part) dont want to have to argue in public that yes, they believe all Americans should be considered suspects and that therefore the government has probable cause for surveillance. They dont want to publicly make such an argument because they know it would almost certainly be politically unpopular. This may be one of the reasons the administration has fought to keep its legal rationale for such surveillance secret.
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Nah, we're more interested in why you would go through these lengths for a known known
uponit7771
Jun 2013
#1
Imagine someone coming forward to provide undeniable proof 9/11 was an inside job...
Spitfire of ATJ
Jun 2013
#73
Exactly these terror-state lackeys are jumping through hoops and denying the hoops exist simultanius
Civilization2
Jun 2013
#39
You left out that they have to denigrate all that looked at the genie. There was no genie.
rhett o rick
Jun 2013
#72
Yeah, nothing to see here, move along...and this traitor needs to be jailed for life.
Comrade Grumpy
Jun 2013
#45
Exactly. railsback is another authoritarian neurotic, obsessed with punishing people.
backscatter712
Jun 2013
#142
Then he can't be running away from anything as he hasn't done anything.
Warren Stupidity
Jun 2013
#116
Snowden isn't stupid. We both know he'd be supermaxed the instant he was caught.
backscatter712
Jun 2013
#145
It's up to Snowden to prove it. When he shows these programs targeting Occupy Protesters...
Blue State Bandit
Jun 2013
#35
When and where did he "show" NSA going after OSW? I am fully convinces of the technical capability..
Blue State Bandit
Jun 2013
#44
He has proven it. It's very simple really. No one is really disputing it anymore, either.
reusrename
Jun 2013
#101
I think he has proved his main point about the analysts being able to listen in on us.
reusrename
Jun 2013
#109
Snowden has opened his mouth and now there is investigations into every aspect of his life. He
Thinkingabout
Jun 2013
#5
What do you mean by warrantless access, are you following this story? Read the Patriot Act and know
Thinkingabout
Jun 2013
#49
Snowden is a criminal and investigations are on going, charges will be following.
Thinkingabout
Jun 2013
#82
I get the picture, be watching your back, they collect every stroke of the keyboard and they collect
Thinkingabout
Jun 2013
#51
Everyone, go check out my pole-dancing girlfriend and what I said when I was seventeen!
Coyotl
Jun 2013
#37
oh course the media sucks, now why not tell us what about what he claims is so important
JI7
Jun 2013
#71
I'm interested in how you were able to get out of a SCIF with top-secret documents
jmowreader
Jun 2013
#85
Indeed, it is possible to disagree, possibly even inteliigently disagree about Snowden's character
existentialist
Jun 2013
#149