Former law abiding gun owner shoots wife over dinner

[AtheistCrusader]

212. You don't seem to hear what you yourself are saying.

"I'm saying that there is a correlation between states which allow the private sale of firearms without background checks and the rate of suicide by firearm."

A claim appears! Form of; assertion!

Now, let's dissect the rest of your post.

"Very simple to recognize, and even the most idiotic gun nut has to acknowledge it. And I'll include some more articles below which detail the correlation between access to guns and rates of suicide by guns. I'm not talking about states which ONLY differ in this requirement because when you have to pick and choose which criteria you judge valid by a gun nut, you'll get absolutely nowhere. I'm saying what I've said a good dozen times now. I'll cut and paste to avoid irritation:"

Ah! A different claim. (One that I happen to agree with and can cite sources for) Your offer of data does not correlate to your claim. Your mistake is in assuming that ACCESS TO GUNS IS HIGHER in states that allow private transfers at gun shows without a background check, predicated upon that restriction. A crucial point you have not established. You have assumed.

http://reason.com/blog/2013/02/14/does-gun-ownership-promote-suicide
Reason? Did you really cite reason.com? I'll allow it, but man, be careful who you do that with on this site, you gonna get yelled at.

"Within the United States, she notes, higher rates of gun ownership are associated with higher rates of suicide. But that relationship may not be causal:"

So not only does it NOT pertain to BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR PRIVATE TRANSFERS AT GUN SHOWS, but the reason article even doubts the correlation. HOLY SHIT YOU GOT ME THERE DUDE.

"Taken together, the results presented in this paper suggest that much of the positive relationship between firearms ownership and suicide is driven by selection—individuals with above average suicidal tendencies are more likely to own a gun and to live in areas with relatively many gun owners. But because female suicide rates are less responsive to the rate of gun ownership than are male suicide rates [which is significant because women are substantially less likely to kill themselves with guns], it does appear that instrumentality effects also play some role. And finally, while suicide rates have been declining in the U.S. in recent years, the reduction in the fraction of households who own a gun does not appear to be the force that is driving this decline."

This reason article reads like a point by point takedown of your assertion. Good job reading it before you posted it.
And of course, none of it has any established link to background checks at gun shows. Excellent research work there.

"Sweden, with over twice as much gun ownership as neighboring Germany and a third more gun suicide, nevertheless has the lower overall suicide rate. Greece has nearly three times more gun ownership than the Czech Republic and somewhat more gun suicide, yet the overall Czech suicide rate is over 175% higher than the Greek rate. Spain has over 12 times more gun ownership than Poland, yet the latter's overall suicide rate is more than double the former’s. Tragically, Finland has over 14 times more gun ownership than neighboring Estonia, and a great deal more gun‐related suicide. Estonia, however, turns out to have a much higher suicide rate than Finland overall."

Clearly you did not read this article before you cited it. You just cited an attack on your softer position of 'gun availability increases risk of suicide'. (A position I disagree with, based on the rates of suicide WITHOUT guns in the nations cited, particularly Japan. This is a cultural issue, but whatever, your source not mine)


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17risk.html?_r=1&

"When they looked at the 15 states with the highest firearm ownership, the researchers found that twice as many people committed suicide as in the six states with the lowest firearm ownership. The population in each group of states was about the same, the researchers said."

Note it talks about ownership, not background checks on private transfers at gun shows.

You have not established a link between per higher household ownership and states with no requirement for background checks at gun shows. You have also not shown a correlation between people who commit suicide, and those who cannot pass a background check that acquired their weapon of suicide at a gun show. A bridge quite beyond what you have already failed to provide.

Colorado is the eighth worst state in the nation for suicide per capita. South Dakota is 12th. Colorado requires background checks at gun shows, SD does not. Washington is 16th, also with a self-mandated requirement at the shows. (Not law, voluntary policing, and WA fares better than CO)

Of the five lowest guns per capita state, only two (New York and Rhode Island) have the background requirement on private sales at gun shows. (And actually, its on private sales, period, not just gun shows)

If I sort these states by NICS checks per capita (Your goal, increasing NICS/background checks, right?) Colorado is 10th on the list, the first state in the list with the background check requirement at gun shows.

No matter how I try and slice this data, I find no correlation between your claim and the data, that does not REQUIRE a massive delta in total gun laws between states being compared.


You are really making two claims, one I agree with, one I do not.

Claim one: "there is a correlation between states which allow the private sale of firearms without background checks and the rate of suicide by firearm."
Claim two based on your sources: 'There is a correlation between higher gun ownership and a lack of background checks on private gun sales at gun shows'

Because your whole argument hinges on guns MUST be more available to people contemplating suicide where background checks are not required at gun shows for private sales BECAUSE those background checks would REDUCE THE GUN OWNERSHIP RATE.

That's your argument in a nutshell. And you haven't supported it in any way. In fact, with your Reason.Com article, you yourself attacked your own position.

Edit: To support your claim you have to not only show the gun ownership rate is lower in states with the background check requirement, but you have to show their rate dropped IN RESPONSE to the enactment of the restriction.