General Discussion

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)

248. My objection wasn't predicated on causality.

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 12:21 PM

Jun 2013

It is on whether the study shows what you purport that it shows, without the weaknesses in the MJ study.

NICS is a baseline for background checks. It does not contain all potential disqualifying records. That abstract clearly states that it purports to show that states that go beyond that NICS baseline to misdemeanor DV, mental health records, and other disqualifications correlate to lower death by firearm, for murder and suicide.

It ALSO Comments on background checks in general, but it is actually pretty ambiguous about that claim, so I want to see the data and how they controlled for the comparison between states.

So, hold off on that victory lap just yet, and also, quit misrepresenting what I said. The causality comment was not the only problem I had with the abstract of the study matching up to your claim.

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Former law abiding gun owner shoots wife over dinner [View all] gollygee Jun 2013 OP

Bet if there were no gun in that home she'd still be alive malaise Jun 2013 #1

+++1 million!!! but stop making sense. nt kelliekat44 Jun 2013 #209

Don't be silly BainsBane Jun 2013 #238

No, no, no. If there were a DOZEN guns in the house, she'd still be alive. Gungeoneer logic. nt valerief Jun 2013 #253

But law abiding gun owners don't commit gun violence liberal N proud Jun 2013 #2

Yep. Gun owners are often law abiding up until the moment they shoot their wife. nt onehandle Jun 2013 #3

Yep malaise Jun 2013 #6

It was exactly what happened in my family. CTyankee Jun 2013 #11

Oh man, how horrible. reflection Jun 2013 #15

In a way, it was just as well that my father's recent stroke at the time rendered him unable CTyankee Jun 2013 #93

Good grief malaise Jun 2013 #80

my brother collapsed by the side of her coffin. He was never the same after that. CTyankee Jun 2013 #90

I agree with him malaise Jun 2013 #111

I don't think her stepgrandfather really aimed at her. He was drunk and angry, went for the CTyankee Jun 2013 #119

That's really sad, CTyankee ..... oldhippie Jun 2013 #208

Thank you, oldhippie. CTyankee Jun 2013 #210

And rightfully so. I am so sorry for his lose. You never get over it really. southernyankeebelle Jun 2013 #112

Well, he's gone now. A stroke took him at age 67 back in 2004. CTyankee Jun 2013 #122

It's sad all around. southernyankeebelle Jun 2013 #146

You have left me without words except to say I am so sorry for you and your familly's loss still_one Jun 2013 #155

Thank you. You are a kind person. CTyankee Jun 2013 #157

Just an(other) isolated incident. Nothing to see here. Heidi Jun 2013 #4

Gosh those law abiding gun owners sure are terrifying. I hope I never run into one. nt el_bryanto Jun 2013 #5

Depending on your state... Pelican Jun 2013 #52

Oh no! Well please reassure me that no law-abiding gun owner would post at DU! nt el_bryanto Jun 2013 #60

One of the .001% of gun owners who kill someone annually, huh.. pipoman Jun 2013 #7

There are around 30,000 gun deaths every year. EOTE Jun 2013 #23

Only a third of those gun deaths are crimes hack89 Jun 2013 #26

They are victims who likely wouldn't be dead without guns. EOTE Jun 2013 #32

But are they "law abiding gun owners" who are suddenly not anymore? hack89 Jun 2013 #44

Considering that suicide is illegal, yes. EOTE Jun 2013 #46

Where is suicide illegal? jberryhill Jun 2013 #54

That's a widely accepted meme, isn't it? AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #57

It's the attempt that's illegal. EOTE Jun 2013 #59

There would be less suicides in Fiji if paraquat were illegal metalbot Jun 2013 #218

You can lump suicides with murderers if you want hack89 Jun 2013 #58

I'm not lumping them together at all. EOTE Jun 2013 #61

So distinguish between legal and illegal gun owners hack89 Jun 2013 #64

Again, the great bulk of illegal gun owners were at one point legal gun owners. EOTE Jun 2013 #71

I understand your need to blur the line between felons ... hack89 Jun 2013 #89

I understand your need to obscure the facts surrounding gun nutters and their propensity for murder. EOTE Jun 2013 #92

So what "sensible" laws do we need? nt hack89 Jun 2013 #94

I've already discussed that many times in this thread. EOTE Jun 2013 #95

So we agree on three out of four hack89 Jun 2013 #97

Again, it's a start. EOTE Jun 2013 #104

I don't hold it against you. hack89 Jun 2013 #106

Are you aware that these four items would do nothing for suicides? AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #98

No, that's not true. EOTE Jun 2013 #103

Well AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #107

It's speculating, no, flat out LYING to suggest that closing the gun show loop hole wouldn't reduce EOTE Jun 2013 #108

So you can show AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #110

And do you really think that only the people buying those firearms will be the ones committing EOTE Jun 2013 #109

What is the correlation between safe storage and background checks that should occur at gun shows? AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #113

I can tell you if the gun show loophole were closed, less irresponsible assholes who shouldn't own EOTE Jun 2013 #114

I don't agree, and I think you should be able to demonstrate that claim with state by state AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #116

So brilliant the way that the gun nutter's mind works. EOTE Jun 2013 #117

But there is state by state suicide/firearm data. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #120

YOU made the claim. One which was auxiliary to what was being discussed. EOTE Jun 2013 #121

Stop lying. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #123

Christ, you DO know that your statements are available for all to see, right? EOTE Jun 2013 #125

I can show AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #131

Christ, let's see if you have a functioning brain here. EOTE Jun 2013 #132

I did make that assertion. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #135

So, you can make an assertion with nothing to back it up. EOTE Jun 2013 #136

Except I provided that data when you called me on it. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #138

You provided nothing in terms of data. EOTE Jun 2013 #141

I do. I asked for a correlation only. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #144

You didn't ask for anything, you made a statement. EOTE Jun 2013 #147

That isn't what you said. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #153

So, you don't believe that closing the gun show loophole will prevent those who shouldn't have guns EOTE Jun 2013 #156

No, actually, halfway down this page, I AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #159

You are utterly inconsistent. EOTE Jun 2013 #163

No. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #176

Yes, I'm well aware that you don't believe in objective reality. EOTE Jun 2013 #179

Remember where I objected to comparing states with MASSIVE delta in total gun laws? AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #185

So what part do you disagree with? EOTE Jun 2013 #189

I've said it like ten times now. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #192

Incidentally AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #124

Do I really believe for one second that you could begin to comprehend intricacies of statistics? EOTE Jun 2013 #127

I love how AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #128

Again, are you truly unable to understand that YOU are the one who made the claim? EOTE Jun 2013 #130

I did assert it would do nothing. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #133

So, you're a liar. EOTE Jun 2013 #134

That is the worst backpedal I have ever seen. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #137

YOU were the one to make the claim. EOTE Jun 2013 #139

I supported my claim. You have not. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #140

You have provided nothing in terms of data. EOTE Jun 2013 #142

Your study, not mine. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #145

You made a claim with zero to back it up. EOTE Jun 2013 #152

You keep on using this word 'lie'. I do not think it means what you think it means. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #161

You made a statement and then later on admitted you had no data to back up that assertion. EOTE Jun 2013 #165

And you're lying right now. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #173

You said that the laws I want would do nothing to reduce suicide (which wasn't the topic to begin EOTE Jun 2013 #175

You still have not demonstrated that. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #178

Do you think that access to firearms correlates with the rate of suicide by firearm? EOTE Jun 2013 #181

As I said, it correlates to SUCCESSFUL suicide attempts. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #187

Oh, and just so you know, talking out of your ass knowingly is the same as lying. EOTE Jun 2013 #177

Except the CDC data validates what I said. Thanks for playing. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #180

It does nothing of the sort. Not that I'd expect you to know if they did. EOTE Jun 2013 #182

You and 'correlation' are not friends. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #188

Here you go, champ. EOTE Jun 2013 #190

And here's where you fall on your face. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #193

And I have no reason to back up anything, because I was not the one to make the claim. EOTE Jun 2013 #143

Suicide was clearly discussed up thread. post 71 and up. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #148

Yes, it was to say that a lot of deaths caused by guns are by suicide and therefore don't count. EOTE Jun 2013 #151

So instead of screaming about COMMON SENSE AND LYING, why didn't you just AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #162

Because I never brought up suicide to begin witih. EOTE Jun 2013 #164

You have not correlated shit. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #191

I'm through with you. EOTE Jun 2013 #194

I provided the evidence. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #195

Were you guys talking firearm injury rate or firearm suicide rate? jmg257 Jun 2013 #149

Suicide rate. EOTE Jun 2013 #154

Hard to ignore what you haven't provided. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #198

I never said I provided it, I said you'd ignore it. And ignore it you did. EOTE Jun 2013 #201

I didn't ignore it. I CHALLENGED IT. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #202

A correlation is a relationship in sets of data. EOTE Jun 2013 #203

No, it doesn't. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #205

Listen very closely, this is what I'm saying. EOTE Jun 2013 #206

You don't seem to hear what you yourself are saying. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #212

Both of my claims are accurate, I never claimed they were one and the same. EOTE Jun 2013 #220

No you haven't. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #221

The fact you're unable to follow more than one concept at once is on you. EOTE Jun 2013 #222

Not gonna address your fuckup with the Reason article huh? AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #237

Bullshit, I've provided multiple links backing up the claim. Don't blame me if you don't know what EOTE Jun 2013 #239

No, still no correlation. For all your noise about me not understanding correlation... AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #240

Just where is GSBC or gun show mentioned in the line I repeated over and over again? EOTE Jun 2013 #241

You tried that claim earlier. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #242

Christ, what you don't understand about this could fill volumes. EOTE Jun 2013 #243

No you bloody well haven't. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #244

Apparently you're not capable of looking OR reading. EOTE Jun 2013 #245

FINALLY you post something that MIGHT show what you claimed. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #246

Causation is not the same thing as correlation, I shouldn't need to tell you that again. EOTE Jun 2013 #247

My objection wasn't predicated on causality. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #248

There's no dealing with incredibly irrational people. EOTE Jun 2013 #249

I will dismiss it ONLY if it fails to show what you claim it shows. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #250

Hell, if you won't accept information when it's free and served to you on a platter, I certainly EOTE Jun 2013 #252

You keep personally attacking me with shit that doesn't apply. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #254

I offered quite a bit of evidence. EOTE Jun 2013 #255

I may well retract that initial claim AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #256

I would challenge that specifically on the comment I made upthread AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #166

You wanted a correlation, you've got a correlation. EOTE Jun 2013 #167

No, you don't get to say that. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #183

The correlation is due to gun laws. EOTE Jun 2013 #186

Not universally true, but much much better, and I would accept that statement. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #199

Does this help DreamGypsy Jun 2013 #168

This might be more helpful. rrneck Jun 2013 #197

I totally agree with that statement/chart. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #200

what is an acceptable number of gun murders for gundamentalists? Nanjing to Seoul Jun 2013 #88

None hack89 Jun 2013 #91

You have to register your car and to vote and for the selective service. why not your gun? Nanjing to Seoul Jun 2013 #223

The ACLU opposes registration due to privacy issues hack89 Jun 2013 #224

Where is your privacy for registering the vote? Nanjing to Seoul Jun 2013 #225

No one knows what my ballot says. hack89 Jun 2013 #226

You still have to register. And I know all about the privilege of privacy Nanjing to Seoul Jun 2013 #227

I have an unregistered car sitting in my garage hack89 Jun 2013 #228

Talk to me when your family member dies. I look at Newtown and realize that could have Nanjing to Seoul Jun 2013 #229

Ok. Have a good life. nt hack89 Jun 2013 #230

"sounds more impressive" or "arouses more anguish about the effects of guns in our society"? carolinayellowdog Jun 2013 #126

Or it is an argument for comprehensive mental health care. hack89 Jun 2013 #129

It may seem incredible, but sometimes people commit suicide to JDPriestly Jun 2013 #85

But are they criminals? Or just selfish assholes? nt hack89 Jun 2013 #86

What about wounds, intimidation, bigotry bolstered by ones guns, etc. Hoyt Jun 2013 #207

Not my guns. nt hack89 Jun 2013 #216

you meant to say suicides not homicides snooper2 Jun 2013 #29

No, I meant to say deaths. Which is what I DID say. EOTE Jun 2013 #31

Yes snooper2 Jun 2013 #35

They ARE responsible for 2/3rds of homicides. EOTE Jun 2013 #39

I see, 2/3rds and 2/3rds, depends on what you are looking at snooper2 Jun 2013 #43

Editing. EOTE Jun 2013 #50

Cause? AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #68

Ah, so guns don't kill people, people kill people. EOTE Jun 2013 #72

There are certainly some people in possession of firearms that should not be. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #74

That's a start, but it's only a start. EOTE Jun 2013 #77

As a gun nut in favor of at least the two items you specified... AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #82

Calling the nutters on their bullshit numbers is essential as well. EOTE Jun 2013 #84

Yeah, math is hard. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #63

You certainly seem to have a hard time with it. EOTE Jun 2013 #75

That's not true. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #79

The number has been going down. The percentage has NOT. EOTE Jun 2013 #83

Before I go rifling through the FBI UCR data to falsify that, what would you say AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #96

I'd say maybe +/-4% EOTE Jun 2013 #100

Fair enough. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #102

I think you have your basic facts wrong. EOTE Jun 2013 #45

See post #43, what defines a gun nut? snooper2 Jun 2013 #56

That's a far more productive and less dangerous hobby. EOTE Jun 2013 #66

But those are all "Thugs" and "criminals" see? Scootaloo Jun 2013 #158

That's it precisely. EOTE Jun 2013 #160

Tell that to their kids. tblue Jun 2013 #28

Way too many. EOTE Jun 2013 #41

Precious salt for the wounds of the victims, huh... LanternWaste Jun 2013 #81

Statistical truth is salt in the wounds of victims? pipoman Jun 2013 #233

Awesome way to trivialize 30,000+ senseless deaths every year! kestrel91316 Jun 2013 #118

Awsome way to pretend pipoman Jun 2013 #231

He needed the gun for self defense Progressive dog Jun 2013 #8

To tie up the loose ends here... Jeff In Milwaukee Jun 2013 #9

You're a bum for making me lol. tblue Jun 2013 #30

I bet anything he'd been drinking. Boys and girls, alcohol and guns don't mix. raccoon Jun 2013 #10

People and guns don't mix. tblue Jun 2013 #33

that's what his father said on the 911 call TorchTheWitch Jun 2013 #251

if only there had been some other gun-toters at dinner rurallib Jun 2013 #12

most gun owners are law abiding until they're not..... bowens43 Jun 2013 #13

And every beer drinker is a potential drunken driver. hack89 Jun 2013 #27

... rrneck Jun 2013 #36

Hmm.... Pelican Jun 2013 #73

Most folks who keep guns in their homes have not a drop of violence toby jo Jun 2013 #14

What I want to know is what goes on in a man's head that makes him decide malaise Jun 2013 #16

Few other skills of negotiation and if alcohol was involved, those few skills were halved siligut Jun 2013 #20

A Nutcase who should not own a gun in the first place. cynzke Jun 2013 #21

Obviously he had other problems. tblue Jun 2013 #38

Not according to his friends and neighbors malaise Jun 2013 #49

How about women with knives? Marengo Jun 2013 #115

This thread is about a husband shooting his wife dead malaise Jun 2013 #169

Uh Huh. A man, MAN ...in the singular Marengo Jun 2013 #171

The article is mercuryblues Jun 2013 #17

I noticed that too gollygee Jun 2013 #18

Yeah, that's pretty weak assed reporting. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #19

It's saying, "Anyone could do it. tblue Jun 2013 #40

I tend to doubt such claims. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #53

Isn't That What You Read cynzke Jun 2013 #22

. Lurker Deluxe Jun 2013 #24

Felony use of firearm. He shot someone. Robb Jun 2013 #25

uhh Lurker Deluxe Jun 2013 #34

Carrying or possessing when committing or attempting to commit crime. Robb Jun 2013 #42

"felony firearm" are does not necessarily mean the gun was illegal... DreamGypsy Jun 2013 #170

In Hawaii, being convicted billh58 Jun 2013 #213

More like "Alcohol" was the cause - but we don't like to talk about that The Straight Story Jun 2013 #37

I'm all for stricter regulation on booze too. Deep13 Jun 2013 #48

What would you propose? The Straight Story Jun 2013 #51

I'll let the experts do the proposing... Deep13 Jun 2013 #55

Well then who the fuck would sit on the side of the boat ramps snooper2 Jun 2013 #65

Holy shit, this is my new sport. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #99

That was funny -- Thanks!! nt CokeMachine Jun 2013 #172

Alcoholic Law Abiding Gun Onwers??? otohara Jun 2013 #67

Don't forget cars - 700k injured by drunk drivers...common theme in violence/etc - alcohol The Straight Story Jun 2013 #69

Cars vs Guns otohara Jun 2013 #215

No one is safe in America from alcohol hack89 Jun 2013 #70

Every criminal is a former law-abiding person. nt Deep13 Jun 2013 #47

During a dinner or because of a dinner? leeroysphitz Jun 2013 #62

It's a good thing he had a gun! Turbineguy Jun 2013 #76

The most dangerous place for a woman in the US leftyladyfrommo Jun 2013 #78

she should have been armed with an assault rifle while serving dinner samsingh Jun 2013 #87

Now see what you billh58 Jun 2013 #101

You guys are wasting your time with this anti-gun thing LittleBlue Jun 2013 #105

Retrieve the NRA's 2012 Enemies List. Paladin Jun 2013 #150

OP FAIL ceonupe Jun 2013 #174

Wasn't it grand of the NRA to fight so relentlessly BainsBane Jun 2013 #184

who advocates for felons with guns beside chitown based on rearrest rates ceonupe Jun 2013 #196

The NRA does much more billh58 Jun 2013 #219

Obviously they are protecting felons access to guns BainsBane Jun 2013 #236

The NRA apologists billh58 Jun 2013 #211

And they claim we aren't rational BainsBane Jun 2013 #235

Where did you read that? gollygee Jun 2013 #217

But everyone who met him just knew he was responsible! RedCappedBandit Jun 2013 #204

And what's your point? rl6214 Jun 2013 #214

Their point is to stigmatize. And it isn't working. Eleanors38 Jun 2013 #232

One more reason why I say guns are evil and gopiscrap Jun 2013 #234