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20score

(4,769 posts)
Sun Jun 23, 2013, 03:29 PM Jun 2013

When Leaders Go Wrong. [View all]

It divides us. This holds true for small and large groups, parties and countries. Some stay loyal to the leader or leaders, and others to their own ethics. Of course the reasons for a person taking one position over another are varied. Some positions are better thought out than others, some see a greater good in following the leader, even when a deeply held belief is tossed aside. And others just follow the tide. But what holds true in most cases, is that division happens when a president or leader does the wrong thing, and that person is most culpable for any fallout - even though his or her followers are responsible for their own misguided words and actions.

This is addressing topics that go against values and principles that a particular group espouses, not the everyday give and take of normal politics. When people caught on to the lies behind the Vietnam War, the country was separated into those who supported and those who opposed the war. When the Bush Administration started a war on false pretenses, the country was divided. People switched parties when the Republicans embraced discrimination in the 1960s. And now the left is fighting over wholesale spying. It’s not to excuse in any way those who would sellout values supposedly held by most Americans, but Obama set the ball rolling when he sold out the values he said he possessed.

It should be a given that the degrees of wrongdoing in the examples given are vastly different. But the basic form is the same and the damage done will be long term – much longer than the term of a U.S. president.

I see no caveats in the 4th Amendment that allows blanket spying on all Americans, all the time:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

How can any person pretend that there is probable cause to spy on all of us? It’s indefensible.

“This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.
That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are.”

Candidate Obama, August 2007.

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When Leaders Go Wrong. [View all] 20score Jun 2013 OP
That last quote is quite damning. morningfog Jun 2013 #1
Good one! 20score Jun 2013 #2
You had me pscot Jun 2013 #3
Thanks! 20score Jun 2013 #31
Yeah! I like it! punkin87 Jun 2013 #4
Thanks! 20score Jun 2013 #10
Candidate Obama also said his HC plan was guaranteed to include a "robust public option" Doctor_J Jun 2013 #5
True. 20score Jun 2013 #9
+1 L0oniX Jun 2013 #12
Well done! And it's true. Doesn't come up often, but it's true. suede1 Jun 2013 #6
Thank you! 20score Jun 2013 #8
Where are the people who now hate candidate Obama? suede1 Jun 2013 #7
Yes they are. 20score Jun 2013 #11
Guess one showed up. suede1 Jun 2013 #29
Yes 20score Jun 2013 #30
+1,000! Well thought out! punkin87 Jun 2013 #13
Thank you! 20score Jun 2013 #28
That Obama quote ProSense Jun 2013 #14
What you wrote and quoted doesn't address the post. 20score Jun 2013 #15
Yes, it does. The quote ProSense Jun 2013 #16
Not implying, I said it. 20score Jun 2013 #17
You used the quote out of context, and applied it to the current program. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #18
No I didn't. It absolutely applies. Damn, you just don't give up no matter what the facts are. 20score Jun 2013 #19
The facts are that the quote isn't about the current program and it's used out of context. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #20
What he said was unambiguous. He doesn't say or imply that he will spy on us 20score Jun 2013 #21
You have ProSense Jun 2013 #22
The quote speaks for itself. It is not ambiguous and I'm sick of repeating myself. 20score Jun 2013 #24
Points for stamina. sibelian Jun 2013 #34
Thanks for posting marions ghost Jun 2013 #32
Into the "Memory Hole" goes what and who we voted for. He needs to know that.. KoKo Jun 2013 #23
You're right and I hope he listens to your advise. 20score Jun 2013 #25
Absolutely he needs to hear this marions ghost Jun 2013 #33
Perfect! marym625 Jun 2013 #26
Thanks! Very cool! 20score Jun 2013 #27
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