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Tommy_Carcetti

(44,493 posts)

223. The inherent flaw in such thinking:

Wed Jun 26, 2013, 09:32 AM

Jun 2013

Basically, you could construe any physical action as potentially leading to a life threatening physical injury. It begs a shoot first, ask questions later type of mentality, which is very, very dangerous.

There has to be a threshold crossed before you can justify deadly force. You cannot use deadly force and claim it was justified because the situation **could have** deteroriated into a life threatening one.

As much as gun enthusiasts and CCW proponents want to protest, there has to be added level of responsibility towards the carrier of the deadly weapon. If someone with a CCW uses his gun to shoot someone based on a mistaken or errant belief that one's life is in danger when in fact it isn't, too bad, so sad. You go to jail. You had the gun, you go to jail.

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ZIMMERMAN TRIAL: Day 2, Tuesday, June 25. [View all] GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 OP

Crime scene technician taking the stand. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #1

No reaction at all to seeing the body of the kid he shot to death. bunnies Jun 2013 #2

Particularly Zimmerman. Just another day of being subjected to this persecution. pacalo Jun 2013 #7

Yeah. Poor baby. My heart bleeds. bunnies Jun 2013 #11

Apparently Trayvon's mom had to excuse herself a couple of times. nt Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #8

I can imagine. bunnies Jun 2013 #14

no reaction to anything. Just that sad puppy look and blinking KurtNYC Jun 2013 #10

no kidding. bunnies Jun 2013 #13

Thanks for doing this. n/t winter is coming Jun 2013 #3

Any knock knock jokes or other "zingers" today? Erose999 Jun 2013 #4

Not a single bruise on Trayvons hands! bunnies Jun 2013 #5

Medically there is some question whether bruises would have had a chance to form Lurks Often Jun 2013 #20

Fair enough. bunnies Jun 2013 #21

Or it means Zimmerman never got a punch in. Lurks Often Jun 2013 #22

Or he didnt bother to try to. bunnies Jun 2013 #23

The general rule is that one can use deadly force when you are in fear of Lurks Often Jun 2013 #24

Can you prove that he had his head struck against the pavement repeatedly? bunnies Jun 2013 #25

EMT's report Lurks Often Jun 2013 #26

If I have a broken wrist... bunnies Jun 2013 #27

True, but the burden is on the State to prove Lurks Often Jun 2013 #31

Why was none of Zimmy's blood or skin or dna found on Trayvon? uppityperson Jun 2013 #32

Don't know Lurks Often Jun 2013 #35

For all I know, bunnies Jun 2013 #36

It will almost certainly prove to be interesting trial n/t Lurks Often Jun 2013 #38

Do you have any evidence that Z's wounds are self-inflected? GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #43

Hence the use of the word *could* bunnies Jun 2013 #44

I do not consider wild speculaton to be helpful. N/T GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #46

Thanks for joining in the discussion, then. bunnies Jun 2013 #47

it was TRAYVON who was fighting for his life Skittles Jun 2013 #85

That is for the trial to determine. N/T GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #93

Only one person was pursuing another person. grantcart Jun 2013 #224

Hard to do that if you are on your back being beaten. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #226

Yes I understand that. grantcart Jun 2013 #227

I agree with you. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #229

I agree with you. Just Saying Jun 2013 #49

Sorry but the state doesn't have to prove a negative. Just Saying Jun 2013 #56

I don't think I am so much defending Zimmerman as Lurks Often Jun 2013 #66

Wrong, Zimmerman has to prove it was self defense Bjorn Against Jun 2013 #68

Incorrect. If he had invoked the Stand Your Ground defense Lurks Often Jun 2013 #69

It's actually a Use of Deadly Force defense. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #73

And we're right back we're we started Lurks Often Jun 2013 #74

If it only struck once or twice, I would say no. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #76

And now you are back to an unproven theory to base the rest on. uppityperson Jun 2013 #77

You are wrong, all claims of self defense are an affirmative defense Bjorn Against Jun 2013 #88

It seems an open mind would see that an unarmed kid Just Saying Jun 2013 #96

Quite simply none of us have seen all of the evidence. Lurks Often Jun 2013 #103

If Martin thought his life was in jeopardy, he had no right to put Zimmy in a position uppityperson Jun 2013 #108

The fear has to realistic. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #115

Zimmy can shoot Trayvon to stop him, but Trayvon can't knock Zimmy down to stop him? Oh. Kay. uppityperson Jun 2013 #119

Knock down, yes. ManiacJoe Jun 2013 #124

Ah, and there it is. You believe Zimmy's claim about that. uppityperson Jun 2013 #129

Not sure how you jump to any conclusion about what I ManiacJoe Jun 2013 #141

That is not what I said. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #130

And you believe Zimmy's take on that. I don't. No blood or injuries on Trayvon showing he did that. uppityperson Jun 2013 #132

And how did Zimmerman put Martin in fear of his life? Lurks Often Jun 2013 #116

Stalking a 17 yr old on a dark night might do it. There were no injuries on Trayvon's hands that uppityperson Jun 2013 #117

Being followed on a dark night might make you scared, ManiacJoe Jun 2013 #123

I agree, it does. It certainly can. eom uppityperson Jun 2013 #131

Typo in my post may change your agreement. ManiacJoe Jun 2013 #139

You may wish to check the autopsy report. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #134

A 1/4 by 1/8 inch abrasion of unknown age on 17 yr old's 4th finger knuckle. And he supposedly was uppityperson Jun 2013 #174

I have a hard time understanding an armed man fearing for his life. Just Saying Jun 2013 #121

The dispatcher also said that it was a suggestion and not an order Lurks Often Jun 2013 #127

I don't know what the legality of what a dispatcher tells someone. Just Saying Jun 2013 #133

According to the dispatcher's testimony Lurks Often Jun 2013 #136

So what gave Zimmerman the "authority" to follow/stalk somebody with a gun? nomorenomore08 Jun 2013 #153

One needs no authority to follow someone. ManiacJoe Jun 2013 #154

That's why I put "authority" in quotes. As in, what the hell was his justification? nomorenomore08 Jun 2013 #157

Z says he followed Martin because Martin was acting suspicious. ManiacJoe Jun 2013 #159

Suspicious how? Wasn't he just walking back to his father's house from the store? nomorenomore08 Jun 2013 #161

I take it you did not follow the previous media reports? ManiacJoe Jun 2013 #162

But once again, you're leaning heavily on Zimmerman's account of things. nomorenomore08 Jun 2013 #166

I am not leaning on anything. You asked for Z's reasoning. ManiacJoe Jun 2013 #167

Okay. Fair enough. I'm not upset with you or anything. nomorenomore08 Jun 2013 #168

I think that the problem most people have with this case ManiacJoe Jun 2013 #169

Z also said TM looked like he was on drugs and those assholes always get away. uppityperson Jun 2013 #176

nothing but fear and ignorance Skittles Jun 2013 #194

He didn't need any authority Lurks Often Jun 2013 #235

Trayvon went to the store for ice tea and Skittles Skittles Jun 2013 #252

Z quit following when the dispatcher said that it wasn't needed. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #158

I don't believe he stopped following Trayvon. n/t Just Saying Jun 2013 #173

I guess my only question is, why are you so quick to believe Zimmerman's version of things? nomorenomore08 Jun 2013 #152

I didn't say I believe him Lurks Often Jun 2013 #232

Trayvon is dead. Zimmerman killed him. That makes Zimmerman a murderer. Not in question. LiberalAndProud Jun 2013 #240

There is a very important legal difference between murder and killing Lurks Often Jun 2013 #241

This will determine if he will be held accountable. LiberalAndProud Jun 2013 #242

This isn't an auto accident Lurks Often Jun 2013 #243

And your open mind misses the point. LiberalAndProud Jun 2013 #245

"we don't need you to do that" means "get out of the car and see which way Martin had gone"? uppityperson Jun 2013 #175

He got out of the truck BEFORE the dispatcher said that. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #188

"Zimmerman thought the dispatcher meant that he should get out of the car and see which way Martin" uppityperson Jun 2013 #193

That was in testimony yesterday. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #201

"we don't need you to do that" means "get out of the car and see which way Martin had gone"? uppityperson Jun 2013 #204

Take it up with the dispatcher, that was his testimony Lurks Often Jun 2013 #233

Nope. It was your quote. War = Peace. uppityperson Jun 2013 #247

About an armed man fearing for his life. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #146

Please don't use the hands and feet line. Just Saying Jun 2013 #179

My point was that an unarmed man can still be deadly dangerous. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #186

No but most people haven't been trained to do so. Just Saying Jun 2013 #190

Who needed self-defense is for the trial to establish. N/T GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #220

Could you give a link to that FBI statistic? rgbecker Jun 2013 #228

It's the same link I posted. Just Saying Jun 2013 #239

Wrong, the burden of proof is on Zimmerman Bjorn Against Jun 2013 #65

"Small laceration" and "minor bleeding" Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #50

Nothing in the report mentions that he wasn't either Lurks Often Jun 2013 #55

If he had been subjected to severe head trauma, don't you think the EMT report would have noted it? Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #57

You don't understand the law Lurks Often Jun 2013 #60

Zimmerman's story is that Trayvon REPEATEDLY hit his head into the sidewalk. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #63

Now you're speculating Lurks Often Jun 2013 #67

I'm not speculating. I'm going off of Zimmerman's own statement. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #70

Your speculating when you said Lurks Often Jun 2013 #72

Detective Sorino (the investigating officer) believed Zimmerman's wounds were not consistent..... Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #75

You presume an ability to predict the future. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #92

The inherent flaw in such thinking: Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #223

The problem of trying to address something serious in a short space. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #225

We agree on one thing Lurks Often Jun 2013 #106

you DO understand Skittles Jun 2013 #83

If I'm to apply some of the arguments I've seen, I could be a crook and hedgehog Jun 2013 #89

Nice to see you're keeping an open mind and looking at all the evidence n/t Lurks Often Jun 2013 #118

oh goodness qazplm Jun 2013 #137

Zimmerman does not have to wait for Lurks Often Jun 2013 #143

not exactly arely staircase Jun 2013 #79

That's a good point. Captain Stern Jun 2013 #90

or I may truly be afraid of all people with red hair and think they are out to kill me arely staircase Jun 2013 #99

This ^^ Just Saying Jun 2013 #97

Agreed and it will be up to attorney's to convince the jury Lurks Often Jun 2013 #120

problem for zimmerman is that his superficial wounds are NOT consistent arely staircase Jun 2013 #125

Exactly TorchTheWitch Jun 2013 #163

you said it better than me arely staircase Jun 2013 #165

these light abrasions on the back of his head look to me TorchTheWitch Jun 2013 #217

Exactly, thank you. uppityperson Jun 2013 #178

You are the one that clearly does not understand the law Bjorn Against Jun 2013 #91

Thank you. He keeps missing that bit. uppityperson Jun 2013 #110

The only thing not in dispute is that Zimmerman killed Martin. Lurks Often Jun 2013 #122

Yes it remains to be seen, but the fact is the burden of proof is on Zimmerman Bjorn Against Jun 2013 #126

Nothing in the report mentions he wasn't stabbed either, or he didn't have appendicitis or he wasn't uppityperson Jun 2013 #177

In todays trial, pictures were shown that showed several lumps on Z's head. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #113

one thing you forgot to mention noiretextatique Jun 2013 #104

And how do you define serious injuries? Lurks Often Jun 2013 #111

If someone had their head hit on pavement repeatedly, there would be more serious injuries and a few uppityperson Jun 2013 #180

Then we disagree Lurks Often Jun 2013 #237

Experience and training. Good lord, that is why EMTs have mandated training and are licensed, to be uppityperson Jun 2013 #249

I think we're going in circles Lurks Often Jun 2013 #254

i don't have a definition, but i am not intereted in spiltting hairs for a murderder noiretextatique Jun 2013 #253

And is there any evidence that would change your mind? n/t Lurks Often Jun 2013 #255

Was he in fear of life when he grabbed a gun and took off after "suspicious" looking unarmed kid. Hoyt Jun 2013 #54

Please limit comments to things that have happened in the trial. N/T GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #62

Why? We are supposed to only comment about "things that have happened in the trial"?WTF? uppityperson Jun 2013 #78

self del Skittles Jun 2013 #84

In this thread, I am hoping for intelligent discussion of the events of the trial. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #95

Be honest - you are hoping to protect your love of guns and all the seedy crud Hoyt Jun 2013 #114

Did you know I have three dogs? Nevernose Jun 2013 #86

I prefer cheesecake over regular cake and loath frosting. uppityperson Jun 2013 #87

Sometimes I forget to put the toilet seat down. etherealtruth Jun 2013 #94

Trials don't work that way. Evidence is not submitted in opening statements. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #100

Boy, good thing I'm not on the jury then, huh? Nevernose Jun 2013 #221

Yes. N/T GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #222

then he concocted a self-defense scenario noiretextatique Jun 2013 #109

so Trayvon was justified in fighting that gun humping bastard Skittles Jun 2013 #81

"struck on pavement repeadedly" riverwalker Jun 2013 #144

As I have stated a number of times Lurks Often Jun 2013 #147

Which doesn't address what riverwalker is saying. She is talking about the injuries or lack of with uppityperson Jun 2013 #181

Then we disagree Lurks Often Jun 2013 #231

like what? n/t riverwalker Jun 2013 #257

The EMT report describing the wounds Lurks Often Jun 2013 #258

no bruises on martin's hands either arely staircase Jun 2013 #140

An abrasion to a finger on his left hand according to the medical examiner Lurks Often Jun 2013 #145

Yes, it can. I will give you the link. Again. uppityperson Jun 2013 #182

I'll be more clear, I want to hear the testimony of the medical expert Lurks Often Jun 2013 #230

Blood oozes for a period of time after death. Medical fact and I have seen it. Good grief, look uppityperson Jun 2013 #30

I'll defer to the medical experts for the definitive answer Lurks Often Jun 2013 #33

Try this link to ncbi.nlm.nih which says yes, bruises can happen after death uppityperson Jun 2013 #80

no bruises, no broken skin, no trace of blood or zimmerman dna on his hands or under his nails Voice for Peace Jun 2013 #82

= zimmerman is murdering, lying sack of shit eom noiretextatique Jun 2013 #105

Yet some seem so afraid that he's being wrongfully prosecuted. Almost like they identify with him. nomorenomore08 Jun 2013 #156

bingo! eom noiretextatique Jun 2013 #248

No DNA on Trayvon's hands according to opening statements csziggy Jun 2013 #183

The lack of DNA btdt64 Jun 2013 #256

I'll be able to watch it briefly, but I have to leave soon. pacalo Jun 2013 #6

Prosecution is being very methodical. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #9

From a WFTV live-stream blogger: One juror is taking extensive notes. pacalo Jun 2013 #12

Does anyone else think mindfulNJ Jun 2013 #15

Those pictures were taken at the police station, not at the scene. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #17

If Trayvon ever hit or scratched Zimmerman Mariana Jun 2013 #18

I would think so too. N/T GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #19

I'd like to see more about Z's wounds Just Saying Jun 2013 #28

I remember when I was young and fell off my avebury Jun 2013 #29

My son fell into the stove Just Saying Jun 2013 #37

The paramed cleaned up Z at the site. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #40

No offense but Just Saying Jun 2013 #48

Well, we are talking about what has been shown in the trial. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #59

Okay... Just Saying Jun 2013 #101

I'm sure that will be presented in the trial. N/T GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #102

per the paramedics report noiretextatique Jun 2013 #107

But they did clean him up. N/T GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #112

there wasn't much to clean noiretextatique Jun 2013 #250

We will see what evidence is introduced. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #259

Zimmerman did not need stitches yardwork Jun 2013 #52

Thanks Just Saying Jun 2013 #58

She is good. Obviously been in lots of trials before. N/T GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #16

Does anyone understand the law in FL about the fact chelsea0011 Jun 2013 #34

It is pretty much the same everywhere. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #39

It's a grey area Lurks Often Jun 2013 #42

Only if he regains "innocense"...I know, it's REALLY stupid uponit7771 Jun 2013 #98

I think the "surprise witness" is up now. Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #41

Resident of the complex is testifying now. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #45

The defense attorney is starting to get on my nerves. nt avebury Jun 2013 #51

He's trying to make the witness appear confused and mistaken. lpbk2713 Jun 2013 #53

She should focus on what she heard. Not stating which way the sound was moving avebury Jun 2013 #61

Great rebuttal by Prosecutor. He made it clear that avebury Jun 2013 #71

Not reporting the direction of movement does not negate avebury Jun 2013 #64

A couple of issues I am interested in hearing. If Martin was on top of Zimmerman when the shot was Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #128

Yes, pictures were taken at the scene of Z, by the police. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #138

Thanks for the info and explanation. Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #151

For an excellent discussion, see Talkleft.com GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #135

Recently hit my head on a low tree limb HockeyMom Jun 2013 #142

The medics at the scene cleaned him up. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #150

About 6 weeks ago a dog bit my face XemaSab Jun 2013 #212

Legally, you don't have to be seriously wounded before you can defend yourself. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #213

No blood on the ground either? HockeyMom Jun 2013 #218

Or on the grass. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #219

MSNBC showed picture of the body HockeyMom Jun 2013 #251

That's what I'm saying. It just doesn't add up *at all*. nomorenomore08 Jun 2013 #160

I watched CNN for a bit just now and... Catherine Vincent Jun 2013 #148

I can never get past the fact DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2013 #149

Z did not ignore instructions from the dispatcher. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #155

It's not been conclusively established that Zimmerman returned to his truck.... Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #164

Zimmerman has stated that he got out of his truck to get the name of the street. avebury Jun 2013 #170

Excellent point. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #185

I don't find that relevant. He was told by the cops not to get out of his car for any reason. Honeycombe8 Jun 2013 #189

Did you watch HLN After Dark tonight? avebury Jun 2013 #191

I'm recalling the conversation with the police. That's when Z got out of his car. Honeycombe8 Jun 2013 #192

There was a whole discussion about Zimmerman meeting up avebury Jun 2013 #197

No, I'm talking about Z's call WITH the police. Not a dispatcher or someone. It was a male cop Honeycombe8 Jun 2013 #200

That was a call to the non-emergency number, to a dispatcher. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #210

Please show that in the transcript of the call. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #206

That's been bothering me since the beginning csziggy Jun 2013 #196

I like that idea davidpdx Jun 2013 #171

If you can pull up the HLN website they have a daily avebury Jun 2013 #172

Thanks for recommending that davidpdx Jun 2013 #184

Found it! Thanks so much! Rhiannon12866 Jun 2013 #187

The site contains an error of fact. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #195

Thanks so much for pointing that out, I've only dealt with rifles. Rhiannon12866 Jun 2013 #198

Vigelante cop wannabees! avebury Jun 2013 #199

If he persisted in doing this, sooner or later something was bound to happen Rhiannon12866 Jun 2013 #203

I totally agree with you. If it had not been Martin, it would avebury Jun 2013 #207

He seemed to be looking for trouble Rhiannon12866 Jun 2013 #208

Yes. He seems to have had a hero complex. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #214

I do. Most people who have CCWs are routinely armed when they leave home. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #202

Since Zimmerman was doing the following, how was he in fear for his life? Rhiannon12866 Jun 2013 #205

If you are getting your head pounded into the concrete... GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #209

I understand and that's exactly my point. Rhiannon12866 Jun 2013 #211

The training was there. He just didn't listen. GreenStormCloud Jun 2013 #215

And thank you so much for clarifying this, as well. Rhiannon12866 Jun 2013 #216

OP, next time please provide some livestream and/or TV links. Thanks. So---are there any? WinkyDink Jun 2013 #234

Here's an online link Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2013 #236

Appreciated! WinkyDink Jun 2013 #238

Post removed Post removed Jun 2013 #244

Link? Wait Wut Jun 2013 #246