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Ms. Toad

(38,648 posts)
49. The distinction between residence and marriage is really a distinction without a difference
Wed Jun 26, 2013, 10:40 PM
Jun 2013

The marriage laws have been worked out so that (same gender marriage notwithstanding), the determining factor was the state (or country) in which the couple was married - and the laws that existed in that country when the couple was married.

Taxes (mentioned in that, or another NYT article) are a prime example as one of the federal collections of laws which **supposedly** depend on residency at the time of the interaction with the law.

But the first thing to understand is that all states are obligated to recognize the marriages of all other states and countries from their inception as long as they were legal in the marrying location (again, same gender marriages and a very limited other subset of marriages against which the state has created a legislative history of strong public policy against - plural marriage is the only one I can think of at the moment).

So - had I been married to a man, my Canadian marriage would instantly have been recognized in my residence state. So ceremony and current residence recognition are synonymous for mixed gender couples.

Another example - common law marriages. Even though Ohio no longer recognizes common law marriages, it did once. Those pre-existing marriages are legally recognized in Ohio, even though at the time that couple files their federal tax return it would not be a legally recognizable relationship. But because it was at its creation, the recognition doesn't vanish. And to stretch this example a bit further - say New York doesn't recognize common law marriages. If a couple married at common law moves to New York, it doesn't matter whether they recognize such marriages or not - they are obligated to recognize this couple's marriage based on the fact that it was a legally recognizable marriages during the period of time in Ohio when the marriage was created. So when that couple files their tax return in a non-common law marriage state, what controls is not (as the New York Times article suggested) the laws of the state where they now live - but the legality of that marriage when and where it was created plus the constitutionally obligated reciprocity which requires New York to recognize what it would not otherwise create - and what can no longer be created in Ohio.

Perhaps you are getting the picture. But one more I find particularly fun. My high school girlfriend - whose sex assigned at birth is male, at the time she was still legally a male, married a woman. She has now transitioned and is legally female, without being required to divorce (which is sometimes required). The IRS has issued a ruling that she (and others similarly situated) may file joint federal tax returns because legal recognition of a marriage is based on whether the marriage was legal when and where it was entered into - not on anything (other than divorce) which has happened since then. (Sorry - I couldn't immediately find a link to the letter ruling - but I have seen it.)

So - her same gender marriage is recognized based on the fact that it was a legally recognized marriage at its inception. NOT - as the NYT suggests tax decisions are based - on the residence state's definition of marriage.

So - like I said, despite the hemming and hawing, aside from this decision (which is why I thought they would punt) whether a marriage is recognized by the Federal Government - because of constitutional mandates for reciprocity - really is based on the laws of the ceremonial location - not the residence.

And - that reality makes basing the Windsor decision on New York law in the condition it existed some time after Windsor's marriage was created legal gibberish. Nice that gibberish falls in our direction sometimes - but it will make for some really ugly and messy litigation to sort it all out because it isn't consistent with the rest of marriage law.

People trying to apply the decision to a couple living in Ohio, for example, running off to Iowa to elope - applying traditional analysis - would immediately obtain Federal benefits because Iowa gets to set its own rules and the marriage created in Iowa is legally recognized. But stick Iowa in place of Canada in the decision, and Ohio in place of New York in the decision, and combine that with the very strong states-get-to-decide-who-to-recognize-as-married theme, and you get a very different result. The residence state (think New York in the opinion) in this case chooses NOT to recognize marriage. And Iowa? Well, you see how much play Canada got in the decision (none). It was New York's laws - at the time Edie Windsor's spouse died - which were the determining factor. Not that they had a legally valid marriage from Canada (Iowa).

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What just happened re: DOMA [View all] Triana Jun 2013 OP
It also opens the door to some future litigation. morningfog Jun 2013 #1
Really? I understand it differently. yardwork Jun 2013 #2
That is what I am hoping it means, but I am not sure. The Link Jun 2013 #3
That is what it means, you are correct. The challenge I see coming morningfog Jun 2013 #8
I agree - they certainly laid the groundwork Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #11
The federal benefits will travel with the legally married couples. morningfog Jun 2013 #13
Yes. This is how I see it too. nt Lex Jun 2013 #15
That is not what the decision said. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #16
I don't read it that narrowly. Maybe you can point me to a quote. morningfog Jun 2013 #18
Here's a quick cut - dont' have time to pare it down Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #41
All the language goes to any marriage morningfog Jun 2013 #43
That is really not clear. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #44
Here are a few points from NYT: morningfog Jun 2013 #48
The distinction between residence and marriage is really a distinction without a difference Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #49
That's not entirely clear jberryhill Jun 2013 #24
SCOTUSBlog supports my reading of it: morningfog Jun 2013 #38
We'll see. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #40
Not yet. Unfortunately. bunnies Jun 2013 #19
Hmm. morningfog Jun 2013 #20
The problem is the first mention of "a State" jberryhill Jun 2013 #26
Yeah, I think it is open. morningfog Jun 2013 #31
Well... jberryhill Jun 2013 #34
Looks like the all states will be on the hook for federal benefits any legally recognized marriages. morningfog Jun 2013 #39
I know. Seems contradictory. bunnies Jun 2013 #28
I think that the federal benefits will travel with the couples. morningfog Jun 2013 #36
Good. bunnies Jun 2013 #37
Two scenarios jberryhill Jun 2013 #29
I think, ultimately, the answers would be the same. morningfog Jun 2013 #32
I agree that this will open avenues for lawsuits yardwork Jun 2013 #23
Exactly justiceischeap Jun 2013 #4
This happens all the time with first cousins jberryhill Jun 2013 #6
That is not analagous. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #14
...which is why the next challenge will have to address Section 2 jberryhill Jun 2013 #17
We have a winner here! n/t Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #42
The expected test case... Chan790 Jun 2013 #5
What is the "federally granted right" in that sentence? jberryhill Jun 2013 #7
Federal benefits to same sex couples. morningfog Jun 2013 #9
I'll have to read it more closely jberryhill Jun 2013 #10
No, it does not say state denial of same sex marriages is discriminatory. morningfog Jun 2013 #12
That is in relation, though to "a class the state has chosen to protect" jberryhill Jun 2013 #21
Excuse my ignorance........ truegrit44 Jun 2013 #22
They will now have federal rights yardwork Jun 2013 #25
Was that question actually answered here? jberryhill Jun 2013 #30
Looks like I was wrong. yardwork Jun 2013 #45
So only as far as say taxes? truegrit44 Jun 2013 #33
I was wrong. yardwork Jun 2013 #46
Ok, guess I should have read more posts truegrit44 Jun 2013 #35
Yeah. I'm still a non-person. yardwork Jun 2013 #47
Kick! Rec! Love! Hekate Jun 2013 #27
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