General Discussion

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)

6. I think it would be better to separate the issue both from Obama and Snowden

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:32 AM

Jun 2013

Yes, Obama does have ultimate responsibility as the senior most administration person for setting public policy on surveillance. However, with a combination of post September 11 hysteria and the boom of the clandestine services especially their areas outsourced to private industry thus creating a relentlessly expanding Intelligence Industrial Complex - I am quite certain that we would be at more or less the same state of affairs with an out of control surveillance apparatus if anyone else who had a snowballs chance in hell of being President were President instead. I think the attention should be on how to bring this monster of a mass surveillance system under control - irrespective of who is in the White House and who blows the whistle on it.

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Isn't it amusing to see all the Obama defenders ignoring the issue of mass surveillance? [View all] cali Jun 2013 OP

maybe people should post more on Wyden, Udall and Leahy JI7 Jun 2013 #1

Why haven't we heard from Snowden? Maximumnegro Jun 2013 #3

I've posted lots on Leahy and Wyden. Those OPs sink like little stones. cali Jun 2013 #4

maybe because people don't really have a problem with what they are saying JI7 Jun 2013 #5

Maybe because keeping threads on snowden nice and frothy sibelian Jun 2013 #18

+1,000,000 nt Andy823 Jun 2013 #66

Funny, haven't seem you starting or posting much in any threads about anything proactive. KittyWampus Jun 2013 #74

Ah. Others should not post so everyone will be forced to read what you want. aquart Jun 2013 #83

So what do you have a problem with in what they are saying? You are willing to give up your liberty rhett o rick Jun 2013 #132

liberty kardonb Jun 2013 #160

And how do you know they are "keeping track of ill-wishers and and conspiracies to do our country rhett o rick Jun 2013 #192

Really? Haven't seem those posts. You make it seem like you've started many OP on them� KittyWampus Jun 2013 #72

Oh, disingenuous GARBAGE sibelian Jun 2013 #17

World Net Daily as a resource. OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #152

Why don't you post something on Wyden, Udall and Leahy? Lots has been posted, right here sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #55

Lots? Sorry, it isn't lots. KittyWampus Jun 2013 #76

Were you around during the Bush years when they were implementing these policies? sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #78

About the only things BHO has done wrong are the continuance of any of junior's initiatives, indepat Jun 2013 #100

Sabrina the problem with Bush was that his way was clearly illegal because he was cstanleytech Jun 2013 #122

I remember exactly what Bush did. Then they changed the FISA law by adding an amendment sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #128

Oh I was around and I disagree with granting him immunity from it still however cstanleytech Jun 2013 #136

No law trumps the Constitution. Not that it hasn't been tried in the past. So I do not accept it as sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #145

Until a court says the law is or was unconstitutional its the law just like how cstanleytech Jun 2013 #148

I gather then that you think . . . markpkessinger Jun 2013 #165

No, the courts do make mistakes like Dred Scott v. Sandford cstanleytech Jun 2013 #193

You say, "Until a court ..." If you are a legal expert, where's your legal authority for that? AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #170

Courts adjudicate. OilemFirchen Jun 2013 #172

It looks like you have a word salad. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #176

Not clear, are you saying you approve of the Bush spy machine currently being used by the government rhett o rick Jun 2013 #133

In listening to Attorney Stone debate Glenn Greenwald, it seemed to me truedelphi Jun 2013 #130

What they can't ignore are Maximumnegro Jun 2013 #2

make shit up much? There have been few of those cali Jun 2013 #7

Can we see those statisics? OilemFirchen Jun 2013 #45

Actually the number of posts claiming "hero" and "message, not messenger" have remained sibelian Jun 2013 #15

Looks like you got nothing. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #131

I think it would be better to separate the issue both from Obama and Snowden Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #6

Of course it would. And I've tried to do that in post after post cali Jun 2013 #8

that irritated me too... I have not been excessively critical of President Obama nor have you - Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #10

I have generally been respectful of the President and have repeatedly cali Jun 2013 #12

Not for one moment will I separate the President from this. mick063 Jun 2013 #34

Some say that everthing being done is legal. 18 U.S.C. � 2511 says that it is not. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #67

Right mick063 Jun 2013 #94

You mean the part of 18 U.S.C. � 2511 which states... stevenleser Jun 2013 #119

Is so, start with FOREIGN Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #137

What probable cause was presented before a court, with evidence of wrong doing to justify the sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #143

Since we are dealing with the particular law the other poster offered, none is needed. It's an stevenleser Jun 2013 #144

There is no exception to the 4th Amendment unless there has been some kind of coup. sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #146

Since you are not an expert on Constitutional law your opinion on the subject is irrelevant stevenleser Jun 2013 #147

I'm not an expert on Constitutional law. OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #158

Well said. But someone is being willfully ignorant. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #171

�It is difficult to get a man to understand something, OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #179

Sorry ignored, I cannot read your response. nt stevenleser Jun 2013 #159

Don't worry. You're not missing anything ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #161

That's one of a couple of standard responses, sadly. stevenleser Jun 2013 #167

It would be truly interesting to have a debate... ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #189

'The oddest thing is the absolute pure anti-Democratic party hatred.' freshwest Sep 2013 #202

Aww. OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #183

You haven't answered my question. We are talking about Domestic Intel sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #162

I've said the same thing to you under different OPs. It's your opinion that this constitutes stevenleser Jun 2013 #163

I don't care who signed off on it. Every respected Civil Liberties Lawyer I know along with sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #164

Did those lawyers who commented see the warrant? I'll be they haven't and are guessing. stevenleser Jun 2013 #166

What warrant are you talking about? We all saw the warrant, or what was supposed to be the warrant. sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #168

Sabrina I strongly recommend that you read stevenlesser's NSA piece ucrdem Jun 2013 #177

K&R... I think if anyone doubted before how creepy and authoritarian our government has become woo me with science Jun 2013 #9

excellent point marions ghost Jun 2013 #33

Thank you, cali. These either or folks are precisely the kinds of people JDPriestly Jun 2013 #11

It boggles the mind that we have such a large contingent of cali Jun 2013 #14

"love it or leave it" = idiots. Here's one of my fav quotes... L0oniX Jun 2013 #38

what a great quote. I'll remember that cali Jun 2013 #47

Actually I don't think it's very amusing at all. sibelian Jun 2013 #13

I hear you. cali Jun 2013 #16

What's amusing is how many posts along this theme there are.... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #19

What really gripes me is they wouldn't be doing those things if this were 5 years ago MotherPetrie Jun 2013 #20

Isn't it amusing that people don't acknoweldge that President Obama put restrictions in graham4anything Jun 2013 #21

absolute bull shit. cali Jun 2013 #24

Polls show- America is OK with the whole thing. Keeping America safe is the #1 concern of the graham4anything Jun 2013 #25

If polls showed 99% of Americans approving, I'd still know they were wrong. cali Jun 2013 #28

Field of Dreams. If you build it, they will come. graham4anything Jun 2013 #29

oh, so the Vietnam war had a legitimate purpose? cali Jun 2013 #30

+1 Snotcicles Jun 2013 #26

True, and pithy. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #173

Obama Defenders? In MY Democratic Underground?! Scootaloo Jun 2013 #22

Yep. It's already devolved into that and the 2014 elections haven't even started. BlueCaliDem Jun 2013 #75

It's as if a group of DUers have turned into NSA corporate contractors fasttense Jun 2013 #23

Good point...It's the Private Contractors who can sell info to whomever they wish to... KoKo Jun 2013 #31

Exactly right. Contractors and their employees are in it for the money. There is no way that AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #180

Well there are cops, military and other gov DU members ...and the cult of personallity. L0oniX Jun 2013 #42

+100 nt Mojorabbit Jun 2013 #174

How Soon.... cynzke Jun 2013 #182

I guess some people are simply willing to give a bit of privacy for security. DCBob Jun 2013 #27

It's not "a bit of your privacy" though. And, while it may not bother you... KoKo Jun 2013 #32

No doubt there are some issues of concern but thats not a reason to trash the entire system. DCBob Jun 2013 #110

So should those who are brave give up privacy so the insecure can feel safe? L0oniX Jun 2013 #40

what you call brave others might call naive. DCBob Jun 2013 #108

Home of the naive huh ...nice modification. Must be just muscial lip service eh? L0oniX Jun 2013 #112

Theres are plenty of things we need to be brave about.. DCBob Jun 2013 #113

Yea well I don't control who is calling what "terrorism". A witch hunt in the USA is not acceptable L0oniX Jun 2013 #121

I can help you with that... DCBob Jun 2013 #125

How many "Al-Qaeda" terrorists do you think exist? Are they killing more people than the number of L0oniX Jun 2013 #127

Did you ever consider.. DCBob Jun 2013 #129

It is more than a bit. I also question whether it is for security. morningfog Jun 2013 #48

And those people ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #58

That might have been Dick Cheney's favorite quote. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #181

Not hardly... ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #196

The phrase "deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" is the attitude that I would expect of Dick Cheney. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #197

Your town of DC lives by this sort of thing, Bob. You did not 'give' your privacy Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #91

I can assure no one here feels like they are living with a "blankie and warm security milk". DCBob Jun 2013 #109

I call it partisanitis, and it is klilling the country nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #35

Here is Joy Reid on Glenn Greenwald: Whisp Jun 2013 #36

Blame Snowden. Snowden through his drip, drip, drip of leaks puts continuing focus pnwmom Jun 2013 #37

I would say that those who don't care about my privacy rights also don't care what happens here. L0oniX Jun 2013 #41

When the first suitcase bomber sets off a dirty nuclear bomb in a major city, pnwmom Jun 2013 #50

There is no such thing. That is a baseless fear mongering hypo. morningfog Jun 2013 #51

"There is no such thing." The Federation of American Scientists disagrees with you. pnwmom Jun 2013 #53

You should read up on it. morningfog Jun 2013 #59

You should read up on it -- from a scientific source. pnwmom Jun 2013 #62

That article is explicit in addressing a radiological attack, not a nuclear suitcase bomb. morningfog Jun 2013 #73

A dirty bomb with nuclear materials is often referred to as a suitcase bomb. It requires pnwmom Jun 2013 #79

It is not a nuclear bomb, though. Not even a dirty nuclear bomb. morningfog Jun 2013 #81

It is called a dirty bomb or a dirty nuclear bomb. And it is something to fear. pnwmom Jun 2013 #84

Rinse and repeat talking points, even when they fail. morningfog Jun 2013 #86

You're the expert on that. n/t pnwmom Jun 2013 #87

Hahaha!!! Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #101

So is the "they are spying on us" stuff treestar Jun 2013 #64

Are you an associate of Kindasleaza Rice? L0oniX Jun 2013 #52

No. But I followed the Senate testimony. pnwmom Jun 2013 #54

Not worth responding too. Enjoy your fear. L0oniX Jun 2013 #56

we used to laugh at people like you back in the day.. frylock Jun 2013 #126

Sorry you're so afraid, but you have no right to take mine away. nt wtmusic Jun 2013 #184

There is more to come. No doubt it will include foreign and domestic actions. morningfog Jun 2013 #49

Oh yeah, authoritarian goons are hilarious, and it's all a big pile o' laughs kenny blankenship Jun 2013 #39

Call out of Obama Defenders on DU treestar Jun 2013 #43

He doesn't have the votes Stinky The Clown Jun 2013 #60

How does a law pass without a Congressional vote? treestar Jun 2013 #61

What a cheap shit cop out. You do this over and over. Stinky The Clown Jun 2013 #82

YOU don't get it treestar Jun 2013 #124

"Lead" . . . . . look it up. Stinky The Clown Jun 2013 #149

It is sad. Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2013 #185

See Jill Simpson's piece attacking the National Security Complex & calling upon POTUS to investigate Cliff Arnebeck Jun 2013 #44

But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #46

Far from amusing. AmBlue Jun 2013 #57

Is Snowden is jail yet? DontTreadOnMe Jun 2013 #63

I keep hoping to hear that he is. Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2013 #186

I'm discouraged by the belief in belief that there is a single definition of liberal or Democratic loyalsister Jun 2013 #65

While I strongly support economic justice, an applaud others that do including politicians even when AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #104

That's not fair. They're also obsessed with Glen Greenwald. DirkGently Jun 2013 #68

Its not amusing. Its disturbing and sad NoOneMan Jun 2013 #69

SO> you start a thread attacking other DU'ers BUT where's your threads on Feinstein's legislation? KittyWampus Jun 2013 #70

do you mean Leahy's legislation? Because Feinstein hasn't introduced any legislation cali Jun 2013 #95

boy, does it figure you wouldn't respond to my post responding to this cali Jun 2013 #102

More scary than amusing. Imagine if they were a majority? Skip Intro Jun 2013 #71

Breaking ProSense Jun 2013 #77

Nice to see you have everyone in their proper boxes tied up neatly with a bow. Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #80

Amusing you ignored it until Glenn and Ed told you to jump. DevonRex Jun 2013 #85

Except I didn't, hon. cali Jun 2013 #96

I never saw anybody talk about this when they renewed it in December. DevonRex Jun 2013 #106

Frankly, Waiting For Everyman Jun 2013 #88

Binney left 2001, Drake in 2007, it's amusing Progressive dog Jun 2013 #89

Amusing that I knew who the OP was just by reading the title. lamp_shade Jun 2013 #90

Actually, it's pretty disturbing; following charismatic leaders while ignoring common sense Zorra Jun 2013 #92

Nothing is Obama's fault. Will you please try to understand that? n-t Logical Jun 2013 #93

They are skipping over denials of blanket surveillance now, and declaring it wise and good. kenny blankenship Jun 2013 #97

You never pass up an opportunity to attack our president, do you? kestrel91316 Jun 2013 #98

there is no attack on President Obama here. but you know that. cali Jun 2013 #103

You are, by far, the most divisive, corrosive influence on DU. kestrel91316 Jun 2013 #153

"and no I fucking well do not attack him, dearie." ProSense Jun 2013 #157

That is an impressive list, that is Hekate Jun 2013 #178

Illogical Fallacy. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #134

I hope that was a satirical compilation of the dumb things Union Scribe Jun 2013 #150

Hilarious and insanely frightening. Safetykitten Jun 2013 #99

Can't admit its true AND defend the dear government at the same time. idwiyo Jun 2013 #105

And you ignore dennis4868 Jun 2013 #107

No, I just give far more weight to my Senators, Leahy and Sanders cali Jun 2013 #111

Who are just as capable of being wrong as anyone else. I've never seen any of those three reference stevenleser Jun 2013 #123

More disturbing than amusing. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #114

I'm rather amused at all of the above ignoring the facts of the situation. stevenleser Jun 2013 #115

nothing like referring to your own "expert" opinion cali Jun 2013 #117

My "opinions" have multiple fact based sources, sources that you are unable to refute. stevenleser Jun 2013 #120

Wyden Eatacig Jun 2013 #116

And Senator Leahy? Senator Sanders? Senator Udall? cali Jun 2013 #118

It is more effective to throw out one deflection. morningfog Jun 2013 #139

Here is the legislation Senator Leahy introduced. ProSense Jun 2013 #155

But but but GiGi had a brief dalliance with pornography and "Criticism is Racism!(tm)" nt DRoseDARs Jun 2013 #135

And now they will ignore President Carter. morningfog Jun 2013 #138

Ah, Obama Freedom - That Indescribable Feeling Of Being Coddled In The Warm Glow Of Surveillance cantbeserious Jun 2013 #140

I'll speak up ecstatic Jun 2013 #141

OMG what surveillance are you talking about? Sheepshank Jun 2013 #142

Bravo! Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2013 #187

What is one supposed to **DO** about the "massive, ever expanding national security state" CakeGrrl Jun 2013 #151

First thing to do is clarify the OP hyperbole and straw man. ProSense Jun 2013 #156

start by supporting Senator Leahy's cali Jun 2013 #190

I bet the Obama Defenders have been in love with Obama since even before 2008 or at least 2004 AZ Progressive Jun 2013 #154

Never mind... ucrdem Jun 2013 #169

Give me a break! Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2013 #175

Funny, Senator Leahy thinks it's "that big". cali Jun 2013 #191

They didn't till they smelled blood in the water. Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2013 #199

As I have said before there are three separate issues: davidpdx Jun 2013 #188

Well said Cali. Puglover Jun 2013 #194

Actually, I Think the Shoe is on the Other Foot On the Road Jun 2013 #195

You won't get a fact based response. You will either get an ad-hominem response, or ignored. nt stevenleser Jun 2013 #200

K & R !!! WillyT Jun 2013 #198

Don't you mean 'most Americans'? Drunken Irishman Jun 2013 #201