General Discussion

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)

45. why would the person who had the gun and used it

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:14 PM

Jun 2013

be the one screaming for help? Once that gun came out there was no reason for Zimmerman to scream so desperately for help. That gun was all the "help" he needed.

For that matter, what person that has a gun waits to bring it out AFTER being subjected to the injuries that Zimmerman was? The whole POINT to having a gun is to deter such things from happening, not necessarily by shooting it but by brandishing it to stop an attacker or prevent someone from attacking at all. It was Zimmerman's gun that gave him the "courage" to chase after and confront Martin... he wouldn't have done that without it as that would be far too dangerous to himself. Why else would Zimmerman feel the need to carry a gun while on neighborhood watch when the neighborhood watch program forbids watchers to carry any sort of weapon? Why else would Zimmerman feel justified and not in the least bit of danger to chase after this kid who was doing nothing but walking home in the rain and confront him without his gun when he knew that chasing after people was prohibited by neighborhood watchers?

It was Zimmerman's gun that determined everything that he did from the start. Without that gun he would not have gotten out of his car. Without that gun he would not have chased after Martin. Without that gun he would not have confronted Martin. And that gun determined everything that followed. There was no way that Zimmerman was going to chase this kid and confront him and allow himself to be injured without using that gun. EVERYTHING he did was because of his having that gun, and a person that has a gun is not going to allow themselves to be injured particularly severely before bringing it out. Zimmerman just didn't imagine that when the gun came out that Martin would fight for his life believing he'd be shot if he didn't but expected him to meekly surrender. It just isn't logical to believe that with all of Zimmerman's actions that his gun permitted him to do resulted in his NOT drawing it until AFTER he thought he was being pummeled to death (not that I believe that's what occurred).

When is it EVER the one with the gun that is the one terrified and screaming for help while brandishing it at an unarmed kid?

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The Zimmerman Trial: The Scream [View all] Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 OP

I agree and thanks for the post. russspeakeasy Jun 2013 #1

Kinda deflates the trolls who insist Cirque du So-What Jun 2013 #2

Post removed Post removed Jun 2013 #140

So sad. They don't even try any more. uppityperson Jun 2013 #141

LOL CatWoman Jun 2013 #142

I don't believe Cirque du So-What Jun 2013 #143

Does anyone else wonder how Martin could have 'seen' or 'grabbed' the holstered gun louis-t Jun 2013 #3

It was only dark for Zimmerman and pro-Martin witnesses Nevernose Jun 2013 #4

Try this. Igel Jun 2013 #58

I don't believe John2 Jun 2013 #90

Didn't he also recant brush Jun 2013 #113

What does this post mean? DarkforZimmerman and pro-Martin witnesses? brush Jun 2013 #112

I do. It's easier to imagine if Zimmerman had the gun in his hand rather than his holster. targetpractice Jun 2013 #6

That's my take ,too. The Wielding Truth Jun 2013 #11

I've always believed Zimmerman, thinking he was THE MAN, prole_for_peace Jun 2013 #41

How ever it really happened, Enthusiast Jun 2013 #61

No there is not. prole_for_peace Jun 2013 #107

Dude, Martin was obviously a teenage NewJeffCT Jun 2013 #98

This message was self-deleted by its author guyton Jun 2013 #5

You do have a point... Enthusiast Jun 2013 #62

Excellent post Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #7

This should be an OP Adsos Letter Jun 2013 #8

I added a little Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #10

Yes, I think you provide a line of reasoning that hasn't been stated this well. However... Adsos Letter Jun 2013 #13

Then at the very least Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #17

Good questions. Adsos Letter Jun 2013 #23

Thanks Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #29

Absolutely. Concise! Well reasoned! An argument that cannot be refuted. nt Enthusiast Jun 2013 #64

So, two people who think the other is creepy, and we don't know who made the incident physical? Recursion Jun 2013 #15

We go back to who initiated the incident. Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #18

I have no idea if Z identified himself Recursion Jun 2013 #20

Zimmerman had a right Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #21

Except what Z did that "put the scenario into motion" was lawful, in that telling Recursion Jun 2013 #22

Z didn't just "initiate contact," he CHASED him; this isn't like saying "hi" to someone. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #40

And if it was Zimmerman screaming, it would have stopped when he took out his gun..... George II Jun 2013 #28

Or (playing devil's advocate) when he took the gun away from Trayvon. SaveAmerica Jun 2013 #36

Wrong. The gun did not have Trayvon's fingerprints nor DNA. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #42

I'm saying that for folks who keep trying to come up with SaveAmerica Jun 2013 #47

And he had good reason to be in fear of his life. George II Jun 2013 #54

I like the way you think...........nt Enthusiast Jun 2013 #65

Directly in the heart was quite an aim, wasn't it. If there had been a struggle when he shot pacalo Jun 2013 #85

Correct, and probably more than one. George II Jun 2013 #99

Yes, I agree with you and am hoping that much will be revealed SaveAmerica Jun 2013 #150

Good stretch there, buddy brush Jun 2013 #117

Yo, buddy yourself, pay closer attention to what you read SaveAmerica Jun 2013 #149

The whole idea of TM taking brush Jun 2013 #152

Good point, George nm Actuallly, excellent point. Cha Jun 2013 #72

As the OP pointed out, the screaming stopped abruptly when the gun went off. pacalo Jun 2013 #84

Why wasn't Z drenched in Trayvon's blood proReality Jun 2013 #103

Maybe the splatter experts will tell us why the blood gushing from Trayvon's heart defied gravity. pacalo Jun 2013 #148

As I pointed out above, if we assume that Zimmerman screamed, he JDPriestly Jun 2013 #105

Good one nt brush Jun 2013 #116

Too Many People Seem To Have Forgotten ChiciB1 Jun 2013 #33

People had been getting away with burglaries in the neighborhood Recursion Jun 2013 #34

I Certainly Agree With Your "Right" To Comments ChiciB1 Jun 2013 #51

I hope you don't mind. That is one excellent post. Enthusiast Jun 2013 #68

A well reasoned post! Enthusiast Jun 2013 #67

Lot's of truth about what you say, but we have to remember the trial is taking place in Florida!! George II Jun 2013 #55

Great post, ChiciB1. Enthusiast Jun 2013 #66

Don't worry. The jury probably won't hear any of that news. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #106

The Jury Is Sequestered, I Agree ChiciB1 Jun 2013 #114

I'm waiting to hear the forensic and autopsy information. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #126

I Found This On At Another Thread... ChiciB1 Jun 2013 #122

Right. Thanks. I found that after writing the post to which you are JDPriestly Jun 2013 #124

That is one fine post, right there. Enthusiast Jun 2013 #63

Thank You For Your Comments & Agreement ChiciB1 Jun 2013 #75

Thank you. I agree with your position, entirely. Enthusiast Jun 2013 #76

Please op this. bravenak Jun 2013 #82

Thanks Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #93

Yep, John2 Jun 2013 #91

If you saw someone drawing Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #92

Also there was no evidence of figthing on TM's hands. nt brush Jun 2013 #118

Whether the jury agrees with you or not, you have explained JDPriestly Jun 2013 #104

This is a tough case Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #109

Apparently the prosecutor does not have to prove intent in Florida JDPriestly Jun 2013 #111

Good points brush Jun 2013 #115

Yes, the OP picked up on that Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #144

I have done my best to stay out of this conversation, I live in Florida. Rebellious Republican Jun 2013 #9

I Too Live In Florida... ChiciB1 Jun 2013 #27

ThanksChiciB1... Rebellious Republican Jun 2013 #37

In Reply, Your Comments Bring Up Even More ChiciB1 Jun 2013 #52

The prosecution has to prove murder 2 in this case. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #110

Since Second Degree Murder Is On The Table ChiciB1 Jun 2013 #120

Interesting. That would help to establish his state of mind. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #133

JD, I am not the jury. Rebellious Republican Jun 2013 #130

But if Zimmerman had pulled out his gun and was in a position to shoot Martin..... George II Jun 2013 #56

Excellent point........nt Enthusiast Jun 2013 #69

I can't wrap my head around the fact that Zimmerman was too composed afterward pacalo Jun 2013 #86

Think about this brush Jun 2013 #121

Hopefully the Jury will take that into consideration. N/T Rebellious Republican Jun 2013 #137

i really hope the prosecutor is making these arguments. barbtries Jun 2013 #12

I don't believe there's a legal obligation to warn someone before shooting them. Flatulo Jun 2013 #30

i'm saying that these facts should be brought before the jury. barbtries Jun 2013 #48

Maasad Ayoob, who likes to pose with a gun on his hip, is just another indirectly responsible for Hoyt Jun 2013 #53

I can guarantee that Ayoob would not sanction Z's actions. Flatulo Jun 2013 #57

His schtick is about arming up and training to shoot people. Hoyt Jun 2013 #59

People are going to arm themselves with or without Ayoob. His mission is to keep you from going Flatulo Jun 2013 #74

Or know the laws, what to say to cover your ass if you shoot an unarmed kid, and such. Hoyt Jun 2013 #78

Your ctsnowman Jun 2013 #100

Yeah, it seems pretty clear cut to me. I don't see the fascination with what happened Flatulo Jun 2013 #119

The scream definitely doesn't sound like someone whose head is being repeatedly slammed... arcane1 Jun 2013 #14

Right brush Jun 2013 #123

I think the jurors understand, or will understand by the end of the trial, that there is no COLGATE4 Jun 2013 #16

I agree with your analysis. Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #19

I listened to the tape a couple times hfojvt Jun 2013 #24

Maybe Trayvon wasn't beating on Zimmerman... Maybe he was trying to deflect the gun or disarm him. targetpractice Jun 2013 #26

Really? I don't think I'd scream for fear of antagonizing the assailant. Flatulo Jun 2013 #32

I suppose it depends on how/when the gun came into play in the scuffle. targetpractice Jun 2013 #43

With a username like yours, I guess anything is possible LOL. Flatulo Jun 2013 #46

Hah! My username has nothing to do with guns. targetpractice Jun 2013 #49

i don't think you really know how you'll react barbtries Jun 2013 #50

I have no proof whatsoever, but Thor_MN Jun 2013 #31

maybe also he cut himself hfojvt Jun 2013 #35

You have proof the he was lying on his back on the concrete? Thor_MN Jun 2013 #39

uhm, no, I have a simple explanation hfojvt Jun 2013 #73

No, I provided another explanation how the cuts could have easily been made. Thor_MN Jun 2013 #97

that is reaching for a straw hfojvt Jun 2013 #138

Unfortunately, this isn't about "accepting" an explanation. It's about proving facts Thor_MN Jun 2013 #139

Oh, I know full well that you are just living on the Nile. hfojvt Jun 2013 #147

Not sure what wild fantasies you are riding on. Maybe lower the dosage a bit. Thor_MN Jun 2013 #151

On his back on concrete? brush Jun 2013 #125

That's my take cpwm17 Jun 2013 #88

First let me say that I believe it was Trayvon screaming AAO Jun 2013 #25

you are too late hfojvt Jun 2013 #38

I can't imagine anyone screaming help as they are squeezing a trigger into someone's chest. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #44

Zimmerman was screaming for help because he was getting a beat down cpwm17 Jun 2013 #89

That blood-curdling screaming was by a young voice fearing for his life. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #95

why would the person who had the gun and used it TorchTheWitch Jun 2013 #45

All great points. Ol' zimmy had gun courage and didn't need to scream. nt brush Jun 2013 #128

Only death will stop constant screaming like that BklnDem75 Jun 2013 #70

I agree. AAO Jun 2013 #71

+1 freshwest Jun 2013 #80

Kicked and Recommended! nt Enthusiast Jun 2013 #60

That argument belies a fake objectivity, IMHO BlueStreak Jun 2013 #77

Try rereading the OP, this time try reading for comprehension. reusrename Jun 2013 #79

100% hogwash BlueStreak Jun 2013 #83

If zimmy was screaming brush Jun 2013 #129

Maybe, maybe not. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #131

We'll see, won't we. Like I said, zimmy had no need to scream. He had a gun. nt brush Jun 2013 #134

I don't think we will see. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #136

I mean we'll see about the outcome brush Jun 2013 #145

It's that 40+ seconds of terrified screaming that makes it murder not manslaughter csziggy Jun 2013 #81

Personally, it's too horrifying for me to believe the screams are Mr. Martin's. lexington filly Jun 2013 #87

I'm a grown John2 Jun 2013 #94

Yes, and at the time he was doing MMA training and was in shape. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #96

Zimmerman was fired from his job as a bouncer for being too violent. yardwork Jun 2013 #127

+1 JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #146

K & R ctsnowman Jun 2013 #101

It's my understanding that Martin ran to get away from Zimmerman AndyA Jun 2013 #102

I have listened to that scream often to try to figure out for myself who it was Samantha Jun 2013 #108

"There is no question"? Oh, come on. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #132

I've been busy offline and haven't read the protect our future Jun 2013 #135