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173. I Appreciate Your Bringing Legal Terminology into the Discussion

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:38 PM

Jun 2013

There has been so much froth over the Snowden charges that it's almost impossible to get a picture of what is actually happening and what the legal basis for it is.

I have one question about your argument though:

You don't own the network or the equipment that stores your phone number or emails or the wires they travel on or the air or space your conversation is carried through.

Even though you may not own the network facilities, you still retain privacy rights to the contents of the call itself even. NSA cannot access the content without a warrant.

There seems to be a belief that NSA has listened to the actual calls (live or recorded). Those claims have been difficult to separate from foreign surveillance, warranted wiretapping, or unfounded suspicion.

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Glenn Greenwald: NSA Can Store A BILLION CELL PHONE CALLS Every Day [View all] Segami Jun 2013 OP

So they own a lot of hard drives intaglio Jun 2013 #1

I think what we are suggesting is that the NSA adhere to the 4th amendment. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #2

And we can have that discussion without elevating a RW libertarian douchebag to the status of a hero baldguy Jun 2013 #3

You need more talking points. You left out China, Russia, Ecuador, and Cuba. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #5

Yes, the moment he's not the only source for the info. Pholus Jun 2013 #31

Did all of those 46% attend the briefings and such about the NSA or its programs et al? Bodhi BloodWave Jun 2013 #90

Collins' argument was that you can't request a briefing for things you don't know. Pholus Jun 2013 #117

There's a lot of "Catch 22" here though... ljm2002 Jun 2013 #120

Right, it's clear marions ghost Jun 2013 #141

I'm sure you have as much disdain and rejection of the neocon/Bush surveillance state Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #44

Obama ended the NSAs abuses under the Bush Regime, & forced them to get warrants for their wire taps baldguy Jun 2013 #52

Nonsense. He clearly did not end the NSA abuses. GoneFishin Jun 2013 #66

On behalf of The Carlyle Group, Booz Allen, Academia, Halliburton, Beltek, Stratfor, HB Gary etc think Jun 2013 #151

Wait wut? Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #158

. baldguy Jun 2013 #163

"If the president does it, that means it is not illegal." ~Richard M. Nixon. Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #164

So, what you really want is to impeach Barack Obama. And why not Joe Biden while you're at it. baldguy Jun 2013 #166

He's been obsessed with the NDAA for a year now. randome Jun 2013 #169

I'm sure Snowden took note of that "small" detail in the NDAAs think Jun 2013 #179

Funny he didn't mention it. Funny he didn't understand what a secure FTP server is. randome Jun 2013 #183

I hadn't consider that the NDAA clause could be used to indefinitely detain Snowden either. think Jun 2013 #184

If: I have a problem with Obama's UNCONSTITUTIONAL acts, Then: I want Boenher for president. Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #170

Your comment proves that you have no fucking clue how our govt works. baldguy Jun 2013 #172

For some reason someone alerted this, Jury voted 3-3.... Logical Jun 2013 #182

Thank you, what an asshole to alert and ASSume. I =do= vote for democrats. Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #185

No we cant. That's the whole point. People have tried to "have that discussion" in the past and rhett o rick Jun 2013 #56

What's childish is supposedly rational, supposedly liberal people trying desperately baldguy Jun 2013 #59

"You're allowing a RW libertarian Paulbot" Again childish. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #63

And what is childish is hyperbole zeemike Jun 2013 #68

Then you haven't been paying attention. baldguy Jun 2013 #76

Well you fell for the propaganda it seems. TM99 Jun 2013 #69

Greenwald may, or may not be a "douche," but he is REPORTING! Dustlawyer Jun 2013 #174

Then they should say exactly how the 4th is breached intaglio Jun 2013 #4

None so blind as those wont see. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #6

none so blind as those ignoring case law intaglio Jun 2013 #9

Mass domestic surveillance has not gone through a 4th amendment challenge. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #10

Metadata phone records are not your property. randome Jun 2013 #11

Bingo. baldguy Jun 2013 #13

I wonder how many threads must be hidden before TOS violations.... grasswire Jun 2013 #176

ah of course. Arguably neither is the information passing over the internet, right? Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #17

Data that is stored by a third party is not yours. randome Jun 2013 #20

Hold on there. One argument at a time. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #21

They need a search warrant to go on or search gholtron Jun 2013 #61

I also want to make this point too. gholtron Jun 2013 #65

Smith v Maryland intaglio Jun 2013 #79

Then you medical and bank records can be had too right? zeemike Jun 2013 #72

There are entire volumes of laws and rules preventing that information from being shared. randome Jun 2013 #77

Well state those laws. zeemike Jun 2013 #89

I'm no law or privacy scholar. I have no idea what laws are in place for school records. randome Jun 2013 #92

Recording of calls and storing them for a possible evidence in a criminal case without a warrant boston bean Jun 2013 #106

There is nothing to suggest that's being done. randome Jun 2013 #107

Long read,but worth it. Go Vols Jun 2013 #147

Those are not published, metadata is published intaglio Jun 2013 #84

How about your doctors meta data? zeemike Jun 2013 #97

That is not published information intaglio Jun 2013 #104

So you mean the phone company publishes zeemike Jun 2013 #135

The information dialed into a phone system is published intaglio Jun 2013 #143

HIPAA prevents the reporting of medical records. No such statute applies to telephone metadata. OilemFirchen Jun 2013 #136

And does it prevent the FISA court from issuing a warrant zeemike Jun 2013 #144

Does what "prevent the FISA court from issuing a warrant"? OilemFirchen Jun 2013 #152

Well then so are the answers. zeemike Jun 2013 #155

Your Bank Records... KharmaTrain Jun 2013 #86

But the corporations do not have the power zeemike Jun 2013 #91

What we truly need to know about the NSA... randome Jun 2013 #96

No what we need is adherence to the forth amendment. zeemike Jun 2013 #98

They Sure Can Screw Over Your LIfe... KharmaTrain Jun 2013 #99

Well that is why I said not yet. zeemike Jun 2013 #101

The State... KharmaTrain Jun 2013 #109

Yep, the world that is. zeemike Jun 2013 #134

+1. anything that's on a computer is theirs. and since they're corraling us into putting HiPointDem Jun 2013 #180

the evidence is that the pres said it is being stored ,,geesh questionseverything Jun 2013 #146

He did not say that the contents of all calls are being stored. randome Jun 2013 #153

I've been saying that over and over gholtron Jun 2013 #58

You remember the 'truism' that it takes more muscles to frown than to smile? randome Jun 2013 #70

What it really is is that some people find it "icky" intaglio Jun 2013 #85

By the way, gholtron Jun 2013 #93

I get you. And I wasn't trying to 'teach' you anything, either. randome Jun 2013 #95

I Appreciate Your Bringing Legal Terminology into the Discussion On the Road Jun 2013 #173

So secondvariety Jun 2013 #78

No, it means the 4th amendment is not being violated. randome Jun 2013 #81

If the phone records secondvariety Jun 2013 #115

It's the digital age. Data is never 'given back', it's copied and then deleted. randome Jun 2013 #116

So, secondvariety Jun 2013 #122

Why would it be idiotic? randome Jun 2013 #129

But, Clapper secondvariety Jun 2013 #140

Did Clapper say that specifically about the metadata? randome Jun 2013 #154

My guess secondvariety Jun 2013 #161

You have no reason to think they are abusing the law. randome Jun 2013 #162

The law. secondvariety Jun 2013 #165

There is Congressional oversight but I don't know how detailed that goes. randome Jun 2013 #168

How it functions is anyone's guess. secondvariety Jun 2013 #171

I don't see how metadata collection violates the 4th Amendment in any way. JaneyVee Jun 2013 #19

Good for you. I hope you like your National Security State. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #24

My point was about the legalities of it pertaining to the 4th amendment. JaneyVee Jun 2013 #26

But you'll trust Verizon to know all that. They don't have laws preventing misuse. randome Jun 2013 #35

The point is very simple, the Congress and the President do not agree Progressive dog Jun 2013 #43

Two things, and funny you should mention license plates. Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #34

Do people really pipoman Jun 2013 #62

When did the government not have that ability to destroy individual lives? randome Jun 2013 #67

Snowden is a flea on a dogs tail...the same tail that is wagging the dog.. pipoman Jun 2013 #112

Well you seem to be ignorant of some lies you have issued intaglio Jun 2013 #100

well.. pipoman Jun 2013 #175

What a charming person you are intaglio Jun 2013 #177

LOL pipoman Jun 2013 #178

I gave examples of lies that you told intaglio Jun 2013 #181

Do you really not see the parody pipoman Jun 2013 #186

I've admitted to a justified ad hom intaglio Jul 2013 #187

Sometimes the gummint keeps secrets to protect your privacy. OilemFirchen Jun 2013 #142

How true railsback Jun 2013 #111

First of your problems intaglio Jun 2013 #36

I find your arguments the most compelling in this discussion! nt MADem Jun 2013 #14

And, like most major violations of the spirit of this nation, the "fig leaf" Pholus Jun 2013 #40

Very much agree intaglio Jun 2013 #46

No need to worry about pride, you're being very thoughtful about this. Pholus Jun 2013 #48

Just because there is a law doesnt mean it doesnt violate the Constitution. I suggest you read the rhett o rick Jun 2013 #64

I suggest you take the Supreme Court's word intaglio Jun 2013 #74

That ruling only applied to "pen registers". The warrant we've seen rhett o rick Jun 2013 #88

Pen registers and the information encoded in the the dialing of the number intaglio Jun 2013 #102

Here's a more pertinent SCOTUS action. OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #103

Thanks for that intaglio Jun 2013 #105

du rec. xchrom Jun 2013 #7

So the technology 'can' do this? Is the NSA using it? randome Jun 2013 #8

If they build it cpwm17 Jun 2013 #12

Technology is often not 'built' in the way physical things are built. randome Jun 2013 #16

When I was a little kid, we were told there'd be jet packs for everyone. MADem Jun 2013 #18

Jet packs are a very impracticle technology for widespread use cpwm17 Jun 2013 #23

We were promised them, though. PROMISED! MADem Jun 2013 #25

Talk about a red hearing....sheesh... zeemike Jun 2013 #83

No, this is a red herring. I don't see the resemblance at all. randome Jun 2013 #87

Well, it wasn't a Communist who told me this, and my hearing was quite good at the time...! nt MADem Jun 2013 #114

So three teenage girls overflow their system? tclambert Jun 2013 #15

Ha! It is to be fervently wished. Demit Jun 2013 #22

Now this report by Greenwald shows he does not have any concept of what he is Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #27

Greenwald says, ""It doesn't mean that they're listening to every call, it means they're storing Luminous Animal Jun 2013 #32

Do we have only a billion people in the US who has a cell phone? How many cell phone customers do Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #49

Ummm, the US population is 313.9 million. A factor of 3 smaller than a "billion" Pholus Jun 2013 #51

The 2014 NDAA creates a new complex dedicated to the analysis of stored data and metadata. Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #38

A billion would be three calls per day per cell phone user. Pholus Jun 2013 #47

How long do you expect a call to last, it does not add up. Longer calls means more storage is taken Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #53

You should probably just examine a calculation yourself. Pholus Jun 2013 #57

Greenwald ProSense Jun 2013 #28

Would you give the government permission to put a camera in every room in your house Bolo Boffin Jun 2013 #29

Here's the video for any good souls who missed it Catherina Jun 2013 #30

I think he is confused. DCBob Jun 2013 #33

It is technically possible, but not very probable FarCenter Jun 2013 #45

It could be they are storing selectively. DCBob Jun 2013 #50

CALEA mandates that they have that capability. FarCenter Jun 2013 #54

Between tower and handset is about 8 Kb/s Trekologer Jun 2013 #148

The guy who does the "Internet Archive" did a calculation Pholus Jun 2013 #55

Once again, he could have read about Bush doing this and MORE here on DU many years ago! Coyotl Jun 2013 #37

But...but greenwald is a something or other! This means everything he says doesn't matter! Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #42

Relevantly, A-Ha was releasing new albums well into 2009 or so. Robb Jun 2013 #39

No, actually 3 days of the entire Internet, per day denem Jun 2013 #41

Prudence Dictates That One Must Make The Assumption That Everything Will Be Recorded cantbeserious Jun 2013 #60

I figure the Terrorists already do... Pholus Jun 2013 #71

Any Smart Malcontent Would Surely Avoid All Forms Of Electronic Communication cantbeserious Jun 2013 #75

The NSA "trap" then is the illusion of freedom or being lost in the noise.... Pholus Jun 2013 #118

Agree - The Surveillance Is For Us - Not The Terrorists cantbeserious Jun 2013 #121

I think my point was, we are all potential Terrorists now. Pholus Jun 2013 #125

K&R Vinnie From Indy Jun 2013 #73

A billion?... SidDithers Jun 2013 #80

So many it staggers the imagination. randome Jun 2013 #82

Not spoken like Carl. Pholus Jun 2013 #119

a billion's got nuthin' on a Sexdecillion flamingdem Jun 2013 #124

I breathlessly await your next contribution. Pholus Jun 2013 #126

I listened to the video posted here last night flamingdem Jun 2013 #128

That's fair enough. Pholus Jun 2013 #133

lol - no not a billion a Sexdecillion !11(one)! flamingdem Jun 2013 #123

LOL Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #137

Hasn't Echelon already been intercepting / storing over 3 billion / day for decades? HiddenAgenda63 Jun 2013 #94

I have a car railsback Jun 2013 #108

Prove it! randome Jun 2013 #110

"And ramming it into the wall while obeying the speed limit? How lame." railsback Jun 2013 #113

So which cell phone companies are complying with the NSA spying on Americans? Apophis Jun 2013 #127

I'm thinking it's all of them. randome Jun 2013 #132

And the authoritarians break out their goto talking point: We already knew that! DesMoinesDem Jun 2013 #130

"hard work, but someody's got to do it" bobduca Jun 2013 #139

So they have the ability to do this Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #131

K & R !!! WillyT Jun 2013 #138

that would be storing.... madrchsod Jun 2013 #145

A lot of it has to do with all the calls we make to our Congressmen. Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #149

That last sentence really clarifies things a lot 99th_Monkey Jun 2013 #150

knr Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #156

I can drink 10 beers before feeling intoxicated! railsback Jun 2013 #157

It's a fact! randome Jun 2013 #160

LoL! railsback Jun 2013 #167

k and r nashville_brook Jun 2013 #159