General Discussion

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)

215. You're changing the subject and inventing a strawman

Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:25 PM

Jun 2013

The subject is the NSA's actions under President Obama.

The subject is not Iran/Contra under President Reagan. Who is dead, by the way. So I don't think it's reasonable to say that he is "running things". Actually, President Obama's administration is running things, and fairly well I might add.

Again, I'm very familiar with this kind of 'move the goalposts and invent a strawman' technique, because when I talk to Republicans about what the "terrible government bureaucrats" have actually personally done to them, they do exactly the same thing.

The point is this. By trying to change the subject, you have implicitly conceded that this is not some issue of direct concern to you. The only thing that is offended is your ideology and your pride, not your lifestyle.

If you wish, I am perfectly able to debate other topics. But that should be on another thread. This topic is the NSA, under control of the FISA Courts, a system that has been in place for over fifty years. (There were some actions that President Bush took that I consider to be illegal - saying the Administration needed no court oversight - but President Obama fixed that a long time before this fake "scandal" came up.)

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Dear mother of Gawd, I am tired of arguing with rocks [View all] boston bean Jun 2013 OP

Amen.. pipoman Jun 2013 #1

But but they are just trying to keep freedom alive! lunasun Jun 2013 #2

We don't want to wait for a mushroom cloud or dirty suit case bomb do we? L0oniX Jun 2013 #33

Some of the "rocks" are pros. They are probably paid for volume of posts. Ignore them if you GoneFishin Jun 2013 #129

+10 That is pretty obvious sometimes. RC Jun 2013 #160

That makes a lot of pro-sense... n/t backscatter712 Jun 2013 #207

but, but, we must agree with our leader. Go Obama! He is our President. quinnox Jun 2013 #3

Only a dirty ron paulite would disagree with Obama. L0oniX Jun 2013 #35

It is similarly illegal for police Gman Jun 2013 #4

Just part of the foot in the door. RC Jun 2013 #164

Or "Immigration Check Points" in the interior of border states. bvar22 Jun 2013 #176

Unfortunately we're stuck with the laws we have. Recursion Jun 2013 #5

Slavery, it was the law. I guess we shouldn't have done anything about it. Coccydynia Jun 2013 #10

What did I say? "I'd like that law to be different" Recursion Jun 2013 #11

Because it comes off a whimsical and Coccydynia Jun 2013 #15

No, it's Constitutional because the Supreme Court said so almost 40 years ago Recursion Jun 2013 #17

Actually, it didn't. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #23

The ruling is clear that the dialing of numbers doesn't have a Constitutional expectation of privacy Recursion Jun 2013 #24

As I noted, the meta data collected Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #100

Hi there, Ms Toad. truedelphi Jun 2013 #212

Thank you. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #249

The court has ruled multiple times, cheapdate Jun 2013 #62

numbers dialed into a telephone system Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #99

What the US says about this program has been contradicted by several JDPriestly Jun 2013 #76

You WROTE, "We're stuck with....." WinkyDink Jun 2013 #65

Wow, bad law =slavery Progressive dog Jun 2013 #77

Not true at all, e.g. DOMA usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #21

The case was 1979. 1986 was the law that required warrants again Recursion Jun 2013 #37

Fortunately, we're not. Iggo Jun 2013 #36

We're not stuck with any law. It is up to the people to make it clear how they feel about anyone sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #53

Just because Congress passes a law Jake2413 Jun 2013 #67

"most recently with the 2008 FISA amendment. " bvar22 Jun 2013 #179

Most of the people arguing with you here are griefing trolls or paid shills. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #6

Yep. They are obvious. morningfog Jun 2013 #7

Yes, don't injure your beautiful minds by being subjected to opinions that differ from yours. randome Jun 2013 #14

^^^ This! ^^^ BlueCaliDem Jun 2013 #153

many simply believe what they're saying burnodo Jun 2013 #16

Post removed Post removed Jun 2013 #41

Oh FFS! MineralMan Jun 2013 #44

Where's my paycheck? ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #57

Do you really feel a need for protection from Acorn? reusrename Jun 2013 #112

Are you serious? ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #119

I sure wish I lived in your reality. reusrename Jun 2013 #121

Well, here's why I live in that reality... ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #124

There are cracks in the meme that "the NSA collection of data is only for catching terrorists". GoneFishin Jun 2013 #134

But you're okay with Verizon using your data for whatever they want. randome Jun 2013 #158

Actually, I trust the NSA to not misuse that metadata far more than I do Verizon ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #217

Now I get it, you think the NSA works for you, and not for the banksters. reusrename Jun 2013 #225

I know. Plus keeping the metadata in one place makes warrant searches much easier. randome Jun 2013 #227

The national security state is responsible for some pretty horrible stuff. reusrename Jun 2013 #148

You're changing the subject and inventing a strawman ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #215

No, no, don't bother. reusrename Jun 2013 #224

Changing the subject, inventing a strawman, and adding an insult ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #238

Most folks think he was behind the coup in Honduras shortly after Obama was sworn in. reusrename Jun 2013 #247

Otto Reich, Iran/Contra guru, now behind smearing Snowden. reusrename Jun 2013 #229

Just FYI, they are alerting on everything they don't like these days. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #85

LOL! Those babies will dish it out, but go squealing to work the refs when they get challenged. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #105

Too funny. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #126

It is obvious to those 6 jurors they just do not understand how really benign all this secret spying RC Jun 2013 #172

+100000 Witness the propaganda machine. woo me with science Jun 2013 #244

Oh, most of them know. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #8

How do you not understand this? randome Jun 2013 #9

Why is your email your own personal data? It's not even stored on your computer? Coccydynia Jun 2013 #12

What does email have to do with this? randome Jun 2013 #19

What can the government do? OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #39

Your link is about wiretaps. The NSA does not wiretap. The FBI does and with a warrant. randome Jun 2013 #95

The link is about what the government can do with our information siligut Jun 2013 #231

Anyone can do anything. Laws prevent nothing. randome Jun 2013 #239

You say metadata isn't protected Coccydynia Jun 2013 #45

I don't know. randome Jun 2013 #92

I suspect you are equating phone records Coccydynia Jun 2013 #106

Really. Please provide a link to a court case well over a hundred years old Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #117

I can't find anything older than United States v. Miller (1976) and Smith v. Maryland (1979). randome Jun 2013 #131

34 and 37 years are not "well over 100" Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #251

That's why I said I would stop referring to 100 years. randome Jun 2013 #255

Yes - I have read the court order. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #258

And the NSA cannot look at that data unless they have a warrant. randome Jun 2013 #262

I am really sorry you had such a lousy civics instructor in high school Ms. Toad Jul 2013 #269

So nothing held in cloud storage is personal data, either? marble falls Jun 2013 #154

I don't know. But why would it be? Coccydynia Jun 2013 #155

Gee, maybe you should read Apple's (as one example) disclosure of their iCloud privacy policies spooky3 Jun 2013 #165

Would this be the Apple that permits Coccydynia Jun 2013 #182

How to tell when you've won the argument: the other person resorts to distraction & irrelevancies. spooky3 Jun 2013 #187

Rubber-stamped dragnets are a problem. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #18

Are you referring to the FISA courts? randome Jun 2013 #22

There's no evidence they are NOT spying on whoever the hell they damn well please. L0oniX Jun 2013 #30

The NSA is a bureaucratic organization. randome Jun 2013 #94

It's not about Snowden. It's about the track record of the US. We were spied on durring the 60's. L0oniX Jun 2013 #96

Show us some evidence and I'll believe that. randome Jun 2013 #133

Surveiling innocent people is unconstitutional. Waiting For Everyman Jun 2013 #29

Again, show me the evidence that this is being done. randome Jun 2013 #97

Look up some info on Thin Thread and Stellar Wind Waiting For Everyman Jun 2013 #110

Binney says "his view" and "ability". And he's been out of the NSA for some time. randome Jun 2013 #136

In other words, nothing qualifies as evidence. Got it. Waiting For Everyman Jun 2013 #169

There you go, automatically assuming there is a 'total surveillance apparatus'. randome Jun 2013 #178

Well apparently WaPo is fooled too... Waiting For Everyman Jun 2013 #186

There are claims and suppositions. No evidence to support the idea... randome Jun 2013 #189

The testimony of experts who know, is evidence. Waiting For Everyman Jun 2013 #191

Tice helped expose Bush's warrantless wiretapping. randome Jun 2013 #199

Tice talks to his sources in the NSA, do you doubt that he has them? n/t Waiting For Everyman Jun 2013 #205

I don't know Tice personally. Do you? randome Jun 2013 #210

Btw to all: the new name for Stellar Wind is SHELL TRUMPET Waiting For Everyman Jun 2013 #209

"The phone metadata is not your personal property" sibelian Jun 2013 #34

The lack of a "statute" doesn't overrule the obvious. OilemFirchen Jun 2013 #47

Understand this. "You are a silly person." sgtbenobo Jun 2013 #42

is that the Utah complex? KittyWampus Jun 2013 #46

Yessireee! sgtbenobo Jun 2013 #49

Mind if I taunt you the first time IrishAyes Jun 2013 #56

Oh, if only I was that bright. sgtbenobo Jun 2013 #66

I'm don't usually indulge unless someone's smarting off at another person - or at me. IrishAyes Jun 2013 #80

Good IT jobs, wonder how many ac/heater techs there will be? Those won't be bad either. n/t jtuck004 Jun 2013 #59

But ctsnowman Jun 2013 #145

Actually, Randome is the Only One on This Thread On the Road Jun 2013 #180

Still pushing that meme. Then explain why if I stalk my neighbor's phone activity and collect and sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #107

First of all, how would you 'stalk' your neighbor's telephone usage? randome Jun 2013 #135

I doubt that any amount of evidence will break you out of your denial bubble. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #216

More PowerPoint slides? randome Jun 2013 #230

The fact that you are so sure it's ridiculous that our government would spy on us rhett o rick Jun 2013 #235

I am positive about nothing regarding the NSA. randome Jun 2013 #240

You left out a group that includes yourself. Group C that is determined to disparage Snowden and rhett o rick Jun 2013 #241

Not at all. randome Jun 2013 #257

Most of what you say are lies. You are making claims about him to suit your denial agenda. Put your rhett o rick Jun 2013 #264

But the external line which is tapped into in a wiretap is? Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #114

The line itself is not a third-party business record. randome Jun 2013 #137

But you've changed your criteria. Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #250

I don't get you. Business records are not your personal property. randome Jun 2013 #254

Correct. The phone line accessed in wiretapping is not Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #259

Hey, I don't make the laws. randome Jun 2013 #261

No. I want you to understand that personal property Ms. Toad Jul 2013 #270

Phone records belong to the service provider, period. Ikonoklast Jun 2013 #152

Villagers with pitchforks and torches. randome Jun 2013 #156

True, but the meta data is or rather was the private property of the phone company. RC Jun 2013 #174

That was Bush. Excluding Qwest from a government contract is about the least amount of 'pressure'. randome Jun 2013 #177

He didn't. He went to prison for refusing to violate the law. RC Jun 2013 #183

BUT WHAT ABOUT SNOWDEN?????? FourScore Jun 2013 #13

Thank you. Got into a long "discussion" a couple days ago with an snappyturtle Jun 2013 #20

I think the whole purpose is to wear you down zeemike Jun 2013 #25

It's bullying. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #61

bullying is precisely the correct word. 100% content-free... nashville_brook Jun 2013 #68

11 hidden posts and you're giving etiquette lessons? Number23 Jun 2013 #263

Sorry, Sgt. Bonobo got me started on this IrishAyes Jun 2013 #81

No problem...I appreciate being corrected when I make a mistake. zeemike Jun 2013 #91

As said before, I don't usually indulge except to avoid saying something even worse IrishAyes Jun 2013 #138

Why I called it a mind fuck the other day nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #83

But I read all wars are over and everybody has universal health care, LOL Corruption Inc Jun 2013 #26

Oh, that one was classic. Marr Jun 2013 #115

But but but we don't want to wait for a mushroom cloud or a dirty bomb in a suit case. L0oniX Jun 2013 #27

I was surprised ctsnowman Jun 2013 #149

I wanted to draw a link to the same propaganda type used to justify the NSA. L0oniX Jun 2013 #190

I have yet ctsnowman Jun 2013 #218

- L0oniX Jun 2013 #219

We can all be ready for the dirty bomb suitcase by RC Jun 2013 #184

LOL L0oniX Jun 2013 #188

You're the rock, since you think you know it all treestar Jun 2013 #28

Case law says ... GeorgeGist Jun 2013 #73

Great point. nm rhett o rick Jul 2013 #273

You claim that our government isnt spying because you are sure your Big Brother Authoritarian DAddy rhett o rick Jun 2013 #88

To answer your last question - many current day truedelphi Jul 2013 #271

Oh Noes!!! You got better things to do! Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #31

Under the NDAA 2014, a new agency is being formed specifically to analyze data and metadata. Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #32

i'm sure the definition of "terrorist" is as pliable as the definition of "collecting data" nashville_brook Jun 2013 #69

As is directly evidenced: Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #70

Thank you for entering this into the discussion here. truedelphi Jul 2013 #272

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jun 2013 #38

The government claims that they do have the right to do this Progressive dog Jun 2013 #40

No court has told them they are wrong truebluegreen Jun 2013 #141

They can if the secret program has non secret results Progressive dog Jun 2013 #146

That's the point. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #151

I trust my elected officials to do all kinds of things. Progressive dog Jun 2013 #159

Are you for real? truebluegreen Jun 2013 #163

yes, but I'm not too sure about you Progressive dog Jun 2013 #167

Obama also claimed FiSA constituted "oversight" truebluegreen Jun 2013 #170

Give me a link on where a Congressman claims Clapper lied under oath Progressive dog Jun 2013 #171

I'm sure you won't give this any credence truebluegreen Jun 2013 #173

Link? Oh I get it, the congressmen that you thought backed Progressive dog Jun 2013 #175

you wrote "The "majority of Congress" doesn't even know what is going on." Progressive dog Jul 2013 #276

Congressional oversight is a joke. First of all, many in Congress support spying on the masses. rhett o rick Jul 2013 #274

So you don't support democracy or our constitutional form of government Progressive dog Jul 2013 #275

"So you don't support democracy or our constitutional form of government" Really? rhett o rick Jul 2013 #277

Okay, then you just know more than congress Progressive dog Jul 2013 #278

This is not a priority for most of the Senators Progressive dog Jun 2013 #161

"Most of the Senators" don't know squat, that's the point. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #166

See my other reply, where the President Progressive dog Jun 2013 #168

Since my aversion to RW media, I have to come here to find out what they've been up to. IrishAyes Jun 2013 #43

haha! Whisp Jun 2013 #55

Records of your phone calls are property of MineralMan Jun 2013 #48

To obtain probable cause you examine published information intaglio Jun 2013 #50

Just because your call may be handled by more than one service provider, does not change anything. RC Jun 2013 #193

It changes everything no matter how you may wish otherwise intaglio Jun 2013 #226

I am a rock. Whisp Jun 2013 #51

I am an island. AtomicKitten Jun 2013 #74

Perennial teen angst/wishful thinking IrishAyes Jun 2013 #82

I generally come with Phlem Jun 2013 #123

Simon was ambivalent about the song AtomicKitten Jun 2013 #125

I am Rockbiter. Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #120

Well said, thank you. You would think it would be a simple thing for people to figure out sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #52

We are the same Illy Billy Jun 2013 #54

+1000 blackspade Jun 2013 #58

Multiple Supreme Court rulings have affirmed, rightly or wrongly, cheapdate Jun 2013 #60

But these are a very different type of phone data. truedelphi Jun 2013 #89

Yes, the content of the communications IS collected along with the metadata. cheapdate Jun 2013 #93

Maybe we do, but that information is still private as far as the government is concerned, if it has RC Jun 2013 #194

Maybe you're right cheapdate Jun 2013 #221

This message was self-deleted by its author cynzke Jun 2013 #63

We've got our eye on you. WinkyDink Jun 2013 #64

"Then to store this data for future querying in criminal cases is fucking scary." Progressive dog Jun 2013 #71

I am afraid I do not understand the world you live in. truedelphi Jun 2013 #90

The world I live in is known as reality. Progressive dog Jun 2013 #128

You keep saying the world you living is known as reality, RC Jun 2013 #196

Learn to read, then you can play gotcha nt Progressive dog Jun 2013 #198

It takes more than reading. RC Jun 2013 #200

The voices in your head are not comprehension Progressive dog Jun 2013 #201

Sorry, but I don't have any voices in my head. RC Jun 2013 #220

In other words, you get to make stuff up Progressive dog Jun 2013 #222

Apparently your reading comprehension has been compromised. RC Jun 2013 #223

That unfortunately is right, RC. truedelphi Jun 2013 #211

It might be scary but its necessary and legal.. DCBob Jun 2013 #72

What they are doing is illegal Harmony Blue Jun 2013 #132

Anybody have any proof of that? truebluegreen Jun 2013 #232

well its been discussed here numerous times over the past couple of weeks.. DCBob Jun 2013 #237

That was actually my point. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #253

There have been some court cases in the past.. that what the discussions were about. DCBob Jun 2013 #256

The current law is not secret, but the way it is being interpreted is. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #260

Kick Scuba Jun 2013 #75

Look at the polls.... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #78

The rocks I hate arguing with are metamorphic rocks. Apophis Jun 2013 #79

Ha! nt ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #84

Shame on you - bad, bad, bad! Nay Jun 2013 #142

White House Down classykaren Jun 2013 #86

You're not arguing with rocks. Your're arguing with shills. Maven Jun 2013 #87

When you cite the Constitution, the terrorists win. Karmadillo Jun 2013 #98

+10 RC Jun 2013 #202

LOL n/t Oilwellian Jun 2013 #246

Appellate court decisions disagree with you, and since they are the experts on the Constitution... stevenleser Jun 2013 #101

Actually, the appellate courts are split on what constitutes "expectation of privacy," leveymg Jun 2013 #103

The Courts already hold Foreign espionage/terrorism is an exception to the 4th amendment for electro stevenleser Jun 2013 #104

We are not talking about Foreign Intel, we are talking about Domestic Intel. sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #108

No, it is your opinion that it is domestic intel. The intended purpose is National Security stevenleser Jun 2013 #109

Why is this so hard for you to understand? My Verizon calls from the US within the US sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #111

You can rephrase it as many ways as you want, it's still your opinion and neither of us has seen stevenleser Jun 2013 #113

You can reframe it as a protocol matter as many times as you want. It's still a matter of faith that GoneFishin Jun 2013 #139

Especially Rock Paulbots Blue Owl Jun 2013 #102

K&R! Katashi_itto Jun 2013 #116

K&R DeSwiss Jun 2013 #118

K&R! Phlem Jun 2013 #122

Well, if nothing else, you've served up fodder for the cave dwellers. Atman Jun 2013 #127

Yeah, boston bean is just like them. truebluegreen Jun 2013 #234

If you had said the same thing in 2007 - not one single person here would have disagreed with you Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #130

It's STUNNING, bb... MrMickeysMom Jun 2013 #140

They ain't Democrats. kentuck Jun 2013 #143

IOW... there are no boundaries in this or any other nation where one finds "yes-man"s... MrMickeysMom Jun 2013 #192

Keep in mind that governments that build surveillance infrastructures woo me with science Jun 2013 #242

Excellent point, woo MrMickeysMom Jun 2013 #265

"arguing with rocks"=accept my position because I'm not changing it. great white snark Jun 2013 #144

There is no "case law". The Rocks want to sweep this whole mess under the rug. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #147

Yes, there is treestar Jun 2013 #206

You cant take out the position of "let's investigate more" too soon. Some here rhett o rick Jun 2013 #208

BINGO! RC Jun 2013 #214

Hmmm. sofa king Jun 2013 #150

I haven't read the many, many ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #157

The difference is choice. I can choose to give a corporation my information or not. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #195

When did you opt ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #243

GREAT POST! But people here are clueless. If Obama does it it is OK. No questions asked! n-t Logical Jun 2013 #162

My dear bean, consider the possibility that you may be arguing with plants, as well as rocks. nt Zorra Jun 2013 #181

Well said. nt woo me with science Jun 2013 #245

Dear Gawd, thank you for making boston bean so smart. Signed a very grateful mother. midnight Jun 2013 #185

I've been here a long time and have learned much from people I disagreed with tavalon Jun 2013 #197

Thousands of Iranians demonstrating felix_numinous Jun 2013 #203

HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jun 2013 #204

and we can be against spying but pro.obama- Liberal_in_LA Jun 2013 #213

OMG bb, now theyre going to think you hate PO. darkangel218 Jun 2013 #228

Kicked & Recommended In_The_Wind Jun 2013 #233

PROPAGANDA woo me with science Jun 2013 #236

How many of our rights enumerated in the eponymous Bill are absolute? n/t Orsino Jun 2013 #248

Rocks always win these arguments because they are so persistent. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #252

Boston Bean doesn't have this problem. Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #266

And what is the point of that? BlueStreak Jun 2013 #267

kick Zorra Jul 2013 #268

Exactly how I feel about Paula Deen defenders. Zoeisright Jul 2013 #279

Holy shit, do I ever agree. n/t Fire Walk With Me Jul 2013 #280