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Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)

10. That is evidence of a struggle

Tue Jul 2, 2013, 08:20 AM

Jul 2013

Not evidence of a defensive struggle by one or the other party. We don't have that information.

Since there is no evidence of who assaulted who first, talk of self-defense is a mute point.

We can only go by what we know for sure leading up to the encounter and the resulting death.

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There is not one shred of evidence Zimmerman was defending himself [View all] Shankapotomus Jul 2013 OP

You are not wrong! Not even close! K&R!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #1

Thank you Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #3

Hunt and Peck sucks ass doesn't it snooper2 Jul 2013 #58

Actually, I'm quite fast Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #61

look how fast I replied snooper2 Jul 2013 #63

I worry about carpel tunnel syndrome Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #68

Dragon Naturally Speaking or Windows Speech Recognition onpatrol98 Jul 2013 #104

Zimmerman started the entire thing and continued it until Trayvon was dead lunatica Jul 2013 #2

I remember you from the old DU2 Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #4

I remember your user name too lunatica Jul 2013 #5

Off topic, I know brush Jul 2013 #101

lol...it could.. Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #110

Well stated. (nt) Paladin Jul 2013 #12

Excellent summary! - n/t fleur-de-lisa Jul 2013 #33

+1000000 dionysus Jul 2013 #67

I think Zimmerman was thrilled when he got the opportunity to shoot the Martin kid. reusrename Jul 2013 #84

Yep yardwork Jul 2013 #115

Paranoid cop wanna be. Glimmer of Hope Jul 2013 #147

None at all treestar Jul 2013 #6

and Zimmerman knows it which is why he says he got out of his vehicle to get an address KurtNYC Jul 2013 #7

you neglected Crepuscular Jul 2013 #8

No. The injuries are not proof that he needed to kill Martin in self defense. Dawgs Jul 2013 #9

They are evidence Crepuscular Jul 2013 #16

Unfortunately for your argument, you completely neglect the possibility that Martin was acting ET Awful Jul 2013 #27

Not ignoring that fact at all Crepuscular Jul 2013 #64

The injury on the back of the head easily could have resulted in one fall Sheepshank Jul 2013 #65

maybe not RGR375 Jul 2013 #116

Why would a kid who was LESS than a block away from home start a fight? vaberella Jul 2013 #168

There was testimony traco Jul 2013 #188

But the question is 'who was defending themselves, Zimmerman or Martin?' Dawgs Jul 2013 #31

There is alot of conflicting evidence in this case wercal Jul 2013 #55

Talk about "believe the evidence they like" Dawgs Jul 2013 #62

Its a court case...it doesn't matter what I believe. wercal Jul 2013 #123

The prosecution Crepuscular Jul 2013 #69

We'll see if they can prove it. What you think happened has nothing to do with it. n/t Dawgs Jul 2013 #70

If somebody I don't know follows me carrying a gun, damn right I'll be in fear for my life. ET Awful Jul 2013 #138

Not if you are unaware of it. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #139

So you're telling me that if someone was following you with a gun in an area you had every ET Awful Jul 2013 #153

How would I know he had a gun? Crepuscular Jul 2013 #160

If, as Zimmerman says, Martin reached for his gun, I'd say it's a safe bet that Martin KNEW he had ET Awful Jul 2013 #166

I agree with Crespuscular. Llewlladdwr Jul 2013 #162

So if Martin had any indication Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #53

And. . . . crickets. stranger81 Jul 2013 #140

Some have expresed to me Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #142

It's not necessary to have injuries traco Jul 2013 #189

That is evidence of a struggle Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #10

And the lack of evidence of the beginning of the struggle is thus a hangar full of reasonable doubt Roland99 Jul 2013 #14

Except for the bullet Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #15

That's the end, though. There is plenty of doubt that can be sewed in the minds of the jury... Roland99 Jul 2013 #34

But it seems to me Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #39

True...but if the jury believes Zimmerman feared for his life...welll....... Roland99 Jul 2013 #41

well, that's where I have a problem TorchTheWitch Jul 2013 #119

+++ Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #143

True, premium Jul 2013 #42

The term Crepuscular Jul 2013 #17

Lol Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #20

That is where you John2 Jul 2013 #75

Good post. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #79

I can help you with that... Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #165

Has there been evidence submitted of ANY injuries to Martin? Roland99 Jul 2013 #13

I think i read that undertaker for martin riverbendviewgal Jul 2013 #26

Not necessarily true. Zimmerman could have shown Martin that he had a gun. Dawgs Jul 2013 #32

But that's purely conjecture, eh? Roland99 Jul 2013 #36

Of course, but so is suggesting jury can only come up with conclusion. n/t Dawgs Jul 2013 #38

And who is doing that? I came up with one "likely" scenario given that the defense only need prove.. Roland99 Jul 2013 #40

Same thing I did, and I'm not arguing for whether Z will be found convicted or not. n/t Dawgs Jul 2013 #66

Yes Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #59

wow...how cute. Roland99 Jul 2013 #78

Those so-called injuries are so laughably minor that they must be self-inflicted. mbperrin Jul 2013 #35

Uh-huh, Sure. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #71

There's no real injury there is the point. mbperrin Jul 2013 #121

he would likely be hired as an expert on Fox News. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #144

If Zimmerman feared for his life - if his injuries were so grievous demwing Jul 2013 #44

He was treated at the scene Crepuscular Jul 2013 #114

The chief medical examiner for the county says that Zimmerman's injuries were "small" and ET Awful Jul 2013 #155

Didn't watch the testimony Crepuscular Jul 2013 #157

Some conjecture droidamus2 Jul 2013 #45

pure conjecture Crepuscular Jul 2013 #112

I feel the injuries on his head are too high to have been SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #47

I'm suggesting that Crepuscular Jul 2013 #60

he bumped his head when he fell down and got some scratches. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #145

punches to the nose very rarely are lethal magical thyme Jul 2013 #95

equally plausible Crepuscular Jul 2013 #111

Yes. The killer is not a reliable source of info yardwork Jul 2013 #117

This is because of "stand your ground" DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #102

Sorry. Z was the aggressor by stalking. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #106

Lack of injuries to TM's hands, no blood on them either Marrah_G Jul 2013 #118

I don't believe Crepuscular Jul 2013 #120

I'll check back in after the forensics Marrah_G Jul 2013 #122

The ME testified today that Zimmerman's injuries were insigificant csziggy Jul 2013 #183

He was just acting on the number one gun nut fantasy. onehandle Jul 2013 #11

yep In_The_Wind Jul 2013 #18

Absolutely! reusrename Jul 2013 #85

From your lips to the prosecutions ears! k&r Little Star Jul 2013 #19

Yes Soundman Jul 2013 #21

What does Martin get a pass on? Nt Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #22

Wow, a lot of replies. Soundman Jul 2013 #76

I,personally, am not accusing Z of racism Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #90

He was never convicted of domestic battery, premium Jul 2013 #91

I must have missed the facts in your post. Just Saying Jul 2013 #96

I thought Zimmerman was on trial, not Trayvon Martin. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #146

On the positive side, you've only been on 2 DU juries. uppityperson Jul 2013 #151

I Don't beleive I Soundman Jul 2013 #190

"Zimmerman gets vilified even when the evidence says otherwise?" Dawgs Jul 2013 #37

well, he's dead. the only account we are getting is zimmerman's. ejpoeta Jul 2013 #43

DAMN MARTIN demwing Jul 2013 #46

Don't forget his locked and loaded can of tea... SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #49

OMG the TEA demwing Jul 2013 #51

he gets "a pass" noiretextatique Jul 2013 #128

a pass? he's dead noiretextatique Jul 2013 #127

Racism sucks. demwing Jul 2013 #131

yes, martin gets a pass on everything, including his life.. frylock Jul 2013 #133

Did you know Trayvon Martin was SHOT AND KILLED? Hardly "a pass". Good lord. uppityperson Jul 2013 #154

No you ctsnowman Jul 2013 #23

I predict not guilty of 2nd degree but madville Jul 2013 #24

This sounds like a reasonable conclusion. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #25

I would have to agree Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #28

You assume the onus is on the defense joeglow3 Jul 2013 #29

How about his video re=creation of events and the testimony SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #52

I will not claim to be an expert on the case joeglow3 Jul 2013 #73

Photo Evidence and the cop's testimony of Trayvon's position when SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #81

You and I have a different opinion on what the burden of proof should be joeglow3 Jul 2013 #105

but his own personal standard of self-defense was good enough to justify killing Trayvon? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #148

I believe in objective application of the law joeglow3 Jul 2013 #156

why is the testimony of rachel jeantel worth less than any other testimony? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #158

Where did I say that joeglow3 Jul 2013 #169

no, I didn't say you said it, Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #177

He doesn't need to prove his side joeglow3 Jul 2013 #178

neither side can be proved. nor proven. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #184

Which is why the case is going so well for him joeglow3 Jul 2013 #185

don't agree it's going well for him. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #194

Also Remember Florida is NOT a "retreat to the wall" state. happyslug Jul 2013 #30

Zimmerman is claiming self defense demwing Jul 2013 #50

Florida, the sunshine state where . . . madashelltoo Jul 2013 #74

I think what Zimmerman actually did is legal in FL. Even though he was the aggressor. reusrename Jul 2013 #87

He's not using the SYG defense. nt. premium Jul 2013 #92

I thought that was clear in my post. He chose to lie instead. reusrename Jul 2013 #93

There is nothing illegal premium Jul 2013 #97

The DA didn't have much of a choice here. Had Zimmerman been arrested that night, maybe. reusrename Jul 2013 #100

Judging from what I've seen so far, premium Jul 2013 #103

"I think what Zimmerman actually did is legal in FL." Then there would be no trial. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #108

Correct, that's exactly what I was saying. reusrename Jul 2013 #132

but under Florida law, Trayvon had the same right. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #152

this completely exonerates Trayvon, if he did start the fight Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #150

The statute that you quoted Crepuscular Jul 2013 #191

nothing zimmerman claims can be proved. it's just as likely, or more likely, that he initiated the Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #193

evidence not consistent with Zimmerman's exaggerated claims Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #195

The only evidence for self defense is Zimmerman's word and judgement... Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #48

Exactly SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #57

The evidence Crepuscular Jul 2013 #72

Good lord. Nevernose Jul 2013 #149

No, it's really not. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #159

I will agree on one important point: Nevernose Jul 2013 #161

When I was a kid I didn't want anything Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #164

Zimmerman stalked Martin The Wizard Jul 2013 #54

I am afraid you ARE wrong... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #56

-1 darkangel218 Jul 2013 #77

How am I wrong? Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #82

Zimmy is not gonna be aquitted. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #83

And 99% of America said the same thing premium Jul 2013 #88

The "reality" that, based on... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #99

Granting your argument Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #86

I agree with your frustration... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #89

No, you are not wrong. ReRe Jul 2013 #80

I invite you to read this Florida court decision. onenote Jul 2013 #94

There doesn't need to be kudzu22 Jul 2013 #98

Exactly. Suppose, let's say, a woman had turned on Jack the Ripper & bloodied his face before he WinkyDink Jul 2013 #107

+1 Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #113

Impossible to cover all scenarios RGR375 Jul 2013 #129

No he is still a murderer (Jack the Ripper) RGR375 Jul 2013 #124

I missed the first responder testimony, so LynnTTT Jul 2013 #109

no...you are right noiretextatique Jul 2013 #125

sure there is d_b Jul 2013 #126

the archtype of the dangerous black man noiretextatique Jul 2013 #130

Unfortunately he does not have to prove his innocence, the prosecution has to prove his guilt. DrewFlorida Jul 2013 #134

The state has to prove that it's NOT self defense davidn3600 Jul 2013 #135

Self defense is an affirmative defense gollygee Jul 2013 #136

Not really. DirkGently Jul 2013 #170

Wikipedia isn't a good source. Florida case law is. onenote Jul 2013 #181

You are right. bravenak Jul 2013 #137

simple and excellent. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #141

Kind of. That's not how evidence works. This is not going well for the state. DirkGently Jul 2013 #163

I'm not one to pull my hair out Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #172

Ha. I know. I was addressing "the room" as well. DirkGently Jul 2013 #173

I agree Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #175

Do not put your hands on anybody RGR375 Jul 2013 #176

Jesus god, don't agree with me. DirkGently Jul 2013 #182

I suppose if one ignores the broken nose and lacerations to the head... Llewlladdwr Jul 2013 #167

this has to be a joke Skittles Jul 2013 #171

So killing a kid Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #174

You don't understand criminal legal cases. Much of what you list isn't an element of the crime. Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #179

sadly, a large number of the posts about this trial are made by people who have made no effort onenote Jul 2013 #180

"It doesn't matter that GZ called 911, except to show that he didn't intend to kill TM" Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #192

No, and you are more generous in your assessment than I am. Answer me this: freshwest Jul 2013 #186

We all know how a court or jury Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #187