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The Straight Story

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17. If that was the crux of the debate it would be a valid question

Tue Jul 2, 2013, 09:34 AM

Jul 2013

Would be like me asking "How many kids do you want to die because of cars/coal/etc per year"

The debate is on how to stop these things. Given that only a small fraction engages in such activities the focus should be on understanding what is behind why those few do so (alcohol, drugs, etc and so on).

Since the laws work over 99% of the time they seem to be doing what they were designed to do, so something else needs to be done.

As I have mentioned in another thread the percent is the same in other things, like owning a pool and the number of accidents there compared to number of pools owned - pretty much no matter what it is there will be between 0.1-0.9% injury/death/accident rate.

New laws on the devices won't solve the problem, in fact gun crimes over the years have went down.

We need to look at each case and figure out what is behind them that causes those few people to act the way they do and address those social problems.

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Google "people shot this week" . [View all] DainBramaged Jul 2013 OP

If you ask me, everything against the president is because of the gun issue...the NRA knows graham4anything Jul 2013 #1

Making guns illegal won't stop the carnage. michreject Jul 2013 #2

Well then, let's make murder a right under the 2nd Ammendment! Walk away Jul 2013 #3

Of course it won't, and you folks will cheer every Zimmerman that pops up DainBramaged Jul 2013 #4

Damn. michreject Jul 2013 #6

Like corn syrup. Creeps into everything. Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #33

This could be a thread about the weather CokeMachine Jul 2013 #235

We probably should repeal all laws then. Blanks Jul 2013 #19

will it reduce it? booley Jul 2013 #291

If some violent criminals were shot during home invasions, GOOD! Google "home invasions this week." AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #5

What is it about some people's obsession about violence and death being A-OK? RC Jul 2013 #7

That's contrary to the govt policy of letting violent criminals return to the streets while AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #10

I always root for the victim/underdog. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #22

Yep -- I always thought of that as being progressive. Maybe I'm wrong?? nt CokeMachine Jul 2013 #236

The miscreants that break into you home mean you no harm michreject Jul 2013 #8

Yes, just making social calls. And when they take their violent criminal activies to other people's AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #11

And Sandy Hook was a movie mikeysnot Jul 2013 #15

Okay, cue NRA talking points about guns from Gundamentalists in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. . . Nanjing to Seoul Jul 2013 #9

In 2007, 385,178 total firearm crimes were committed.... The Straight Story Jul 2013 #12

How dare you inject facts into the thread michreject Jul 2013 #13

A consideration of facts will slow this down. Not to worry, though, because facts will be ignored by AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #14

So how many deaths do you regard as acceptable? intaglio Jul 2013 #16

If that was the crux of the debate it would be a valid question The Straight Story Jul 2013 #17

Cars have many uses, so does coal, so do knives etc etc intaglio Jul 2013 #18

There are many lawful uses for guns hack89 Jul 2013 #20

No subject FunkyLeprechaun Jul 2013 #21

Well, as long as it's ok with you. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #25

So what is your solution? hack89 Jul 2013 #26

Heller will be overturned FunkyLeprechaun Jul 2013 #34

You hang on to that dream hack89 Jul 2013 #36

I'm not sure why you think Heller is going to stay FunkyLeprechaun Jul 2013 #44

There has been no sea change in America regarding gun control. hack89 Jul 2013 #47

Polling data says otherwise BainsBane Jul 2013 #264

Not on major issues like registration and an AWB hack89 Jul 2013 #268

You mean in MacDonald vs. City of Chigago? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #54

Where's the indication of that? michreject Jul 2013 #194

All of your lawful uses require that projectiles be propelled with sufficient force intaglio Jul 2013 #48

So? hack89 Jul 2013 #50

And that is relevant how? intaglio Jul 2013 #53

Perfectly good reasons to have guns hack89 Jul 2013 #56

Competition, training, recreation, self-defense AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #59

I am pointing out that the sole purpose of a working gun intaglio Jul 2013 #63

And I am saying that those are acceptable purposes in the vast majority of cases. hack89 Jul 2013 #65

Acceptable does not change the effect intaglio Jul 2013 #75

Since only a tiny fraction of guns are used in unacceptable ways hack89 Jul 2013 #77

OK, assign a value to the lives intaglio Jul 2013 #81

All criminal acts are unacceptable hack89 Jul 2013 #95

But you are making the argument that the vast majority of "responsible" owners intaglio Jul 2013 #101

Counting just criminal acts - .00002% nt hack89 Jul 2013 #107

About 600 deaths. Ah but those are not the only gun deaths, are they? intaglio Jul 2013 #121

That's where we are heading towards. hack89 Jul 2013 #122

You are ascribing intent. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #71

But there was intent on the part of the weapon designer and manufacturer intaglio Jul 2013 #76

Completely made up. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #80

Name that weapon intaglio Jul 2013 #83

It is an AR-15 AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #87

Also, I could fix bayonet and stab someone with it, so inclined. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #93

so the original design of an AR15 is not to damage injure or kill intaglio Jul 2013 #94

Not in mine they don't. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #100

so you are telling me that there are absolutely NO aftermarket parts intaglio Jul 2013 #110

That's exactly my point. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #111

Fine but it is faster and easier to do so if you have the base from which to work n/t intaglio Jul 2013 #123

I usually make automotive related parts. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #127

So, by your own argument you AR15 could rapidly revert to being lethal intaglio Jul 2013 #131

So could a solid block of steel. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #135

Rapidly ... intaglio Jul 2013 #172

Let's see, a couple hours on the CNC or AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #174

Hours or days finding the plans to input intaglio Jul 2013 #185

Wait, I thought people were making these with hand tools in the Khyber Pass. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #188

You're the one who brought up CNC machining intaglio Jul 2013 #195

The sole use of an auto is to tranport cargo from on point to another. oneshooter Jul 2013 #106

Oh, the old "Cars is more dangerous than guns argument" intaglio Jul 2013 #128

Math says: cars. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #137

How many hours a day do you spend in and round moving cars? intaglio Jul 2013 #181

I spend more time around my guns. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #183

In Use intaglio Jul 2013 #189

So, 'in use' means what, pulling the trigger now? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #191

So walking by the nearest armoury would qualify you as a supreme survivor? intaglio Jul 2013 #201

I don't drive a car. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #202

How about when a guns is being transported to the range?? CokeMachine Jul 2013 #245

You really must stop using statistics intaglio Jul 2013 #251

A car is NOT DESIGNED to KILL. However it manages to do so daily. oneshooter Jul 2013 #203

Exactly, a gun is designed to damage injure and kill intaglio Jul 2013 #206

Probably makes a difference to the animal, target, or person. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #61

It does not change the purpose of the gun intaglio Jul 2013 #64

Purpose is in the eye of the person holding it. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #67

Apparently all of my guns are broken then. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #24

Are your guns capable of issuing a projectile? intaglio Jul 2013 #49

Capable, yes. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #52

Doesn't matter, the purpose of a gun is to damge injure and kill intaglio Jul 2013 #55

Again, not true. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #57

Not suitable does not mean they cannot perform their purpose intaglio Jul 2013 #66

Given that you don't know what you are talking about AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #68

Oh, where am I wrong? intaglio Jul 2013 #72

That is absurd. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #74

A weapon is not just the barrel intaglio Jul 2013 #78

And guns need not soley be used to kill. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #82

Prove it, name the weapon. intaglio Jul 2013 #85

SIRT-AR Bolt equipped AR-15. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #90

What of shaving? intaglio Jul 2013 #69

Still cutting and stabbing. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #70

So now it is about usage as well then? Or is it.... The Straight Story Jul 2013 #29

Your response at number 12 concentrated entirely on the apparent sparsity of gun crime intaglio Jul 2013 #51

Except of course civilians are not permitted Destructive Devices. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #58

At this point it should be obvious that someone above is simply trolling The Straight Story Jul 2013 #249

Gun owners are 13 times more deadly than car owners. Robb Jul 2013 #23

And we license every gun owner that carries concealed in all but 3 states. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #27

We license gun owners that carry in public hack89 Jul 2013 #28

Oh, just talking fatalities? 0.006% then fur guns The Straight Story Jul 2013 #30

0.9% for cars on Injuries alone: The Straight Story Jul 2013 #31

Apple, meet Orange. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #32

I thought mere safety wasn't worth giving up rights for? (nt) Recursion Jul 2013 #35

So a few should die so you can have your gun? DainBramaged Jul 2013 #37

I'm for gun registration. I'm talking about the arguments I see on DU that giving up liberty ... Recursion Jul 2013 #38

You didn't answer my question, you tried to circumvent it with a curve ball DainBramaged Jul 2013 #39

I don't have guns, and I support gun registration Recursion Jul 2013 #40

And neither did yours. DainBramaged Jul 2013 #41

OK, so your answer is "Life trumps 'freedom'". Recursion Jul 2013 #42

apples and lead DainBramaged Jul 2013 #45

People have died for my right to own a firearm michreject Jul 2013 #43

Should they continue to die for that right? DainBramaged Jul 2013 #46

That sounds a lot like the religious argument that I should believe just in case so my AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #60

crime statistics prove that guns kill 38,000 people a year BainsBane Jul 2013 #73

Keep inflating that number. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #79

Suicide is in fact a crime BainsBane Jul 2013 #84

An average? From when? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #89

An average over the past couple of decades BainsBane Jul 2013 #97

"and federal statisticians expect a further drop when 1996 reports are complete." AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #102

No, it's an argument for background checks BainsBane Jul 2013 #105

Most of that is already in place. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #108

Not true BainsBane Jul 2013 #115

Bullshit it's not true. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #126

Read the NYTimes article BainsBane Jul 2013 #136

I dont give a shit what the New York Times got wrong. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #138

You don't give a shit, period BainsBane Jul 2013 #141

Clearly you cannot be bothered to look at supreme court decisions or a simple link AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #143

a law means fuck all if it isn't enforced BainsBane Jul 2013 #146

It is enforced. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #148

What the hell is wrong with me is you are ignoring the evidence in front of you BainsBane Jul 2013 #150

The Lautenberg Act applies to every single fucking citizen. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #156

Your link says it doesn't violate WA law BainsBane Jul 2013 #160

Correct. Meaning, it applies here. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #161

File a complaint with the Civil Rights Division? BainsBane Jul 2013 #162

And a state law would do what? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #164

I'm not necessarily talking about law BainsBane Jul 2013 #167

I can't defend the NRA here. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #173

Let's say there are police departments unaware of this law. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #168

I'm glad to hear that BainsBane Jul 2013 #178

It concerns me that we expend resources where they are effective. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #182

Well, that was evidently a pointless suggestion on my part BainsBane Jul 2013 #225

If registration was the crux of your point AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #232

No BainsBane Jul 2013 #238

I see expending maximum effort on practical legislation as AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #244

It has nothing to do with policy, in this particular case BainsBane Jul 2013 #246

No I didn't. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #247

There is one, and only one weakness to this law. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #163

So you're not interested in what states actually do BainsBane Jul 2013 #132

I care what the law says. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #139

Okay, so as long as a statute somewhere say something BainsBane Jul 2013 #144

Making it double-illegal doesn't protect you. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #145

So read the fucking article BainsBane Jul 2013 #147

I did. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #149

So how did those women die? BainsBane Jul 2013 #151

Wikipedia is not wrong about this. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #152

No, I'm not a lawyer BainsBane Jul 2013 #155

I can't explain the NRA's actions. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #158

This article talks about surrendering guns, do you get it? BainsBane Jul 2013 #157

If you have a DV related restraining order AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #159

Perhaps you should tell the NRA to quit working BainsBane Jul 2013 #165

Then they are not upholding the law. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #171

I know a bit about the difference between law and practice BainsBane Jul 2013 #176

They may not enforce the law. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #179

I think, though, that there are two gaps between the federal law and what petronius Jul 2013 #186

The 'temporary/hearing' issue was abrogated by appeals court. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #190

More from the Times BainsBane Jul 2013 #169

And all of that is overridden by the federal statute. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #175

Perhaps you should tell that to the judges involved BainsBane Jul 2013 #177

I'll be happy to. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #180

Can you cite some state penal codes that list suicide/attempted suicide as an actual crime? petronius Jul 2013 #112

Does it matter? She lumped in suicide with murder, and explained that - big deal. jmg257 Jul 2013 #116

From Wikipedia BainsBane Jul 2013 #118

I found that - I was actually curious about your statement that it's included petronius Jul 2013 #120

I actually thought it was still on the criminal statues BainsBane Jul 2013 #124

So, it's not illegal then. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #140

Not according to common law BainsBane Jul 2013 #153

An excuse not to pay out on a life insurance policy does not constitute a 'crime'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #154

Where did the additional 8K come form? michreject Jul 2013 #197

So you decide whether I belong or not michreject Jul 2013 #193

You can't even reply with an honest answer, just a corny deflection DainBramaged Jul 2013 #210

I googled "dead children since Sandy Hook" OldEurope Jul 2013 #62

Google "Gallup Poll reason why Democrats own guns" AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #86

The gun nuts are going crazy intaglio Jul 2013 #88

Accurate as always. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #91

Unlike you and your AR 15 that's not designed to d,i or k n/t intaglio Jul 2013 #96

It's a shame you didn't know what you were talking about. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #104

The AR15 is designed to kill intaglio Jul 2013 #129

Again, you do not understand. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #134

So it would take longer to machine a new upper than a full waepon? intaglio Jul 2013 #170

I own one with all the POTENTIAL to do all of those things. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #199

Oooooohhhhh!!!!!! michreject Jul 2013 #198

Google "number of people influenced by the use of the term "gun nuts" AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #98

Sorry, but lots of people are also influence by the term "socialist" intaglio Jul 2013 #103

Good. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #109

To keep their precious, gun deaths are acceptable DainBramaged Jul 2013 #117

Google "Gallup Poll number of Democrats who own guns" AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #92

Oddly murder rates were higher before the gun was invented One_Life_To_Give Jul 2013 #99

Cue "go back to the Gungeon, NRA talking point" post in 3...2...1... n/t bobclark86 Jul 2013 #113

Well obviously a certain level of child deaths are acceptable to you intaglio Jul 2013 #114

It's already pretty low. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #119

So you are saying that over 6,400 deaths per annum are acceptable intaglio Jul 2013 #125

Acceptable is your word, not mine. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #130

you were the one who quoted figures to support your argument intaglio Jul 2013 #133

0 deaths are acceptable to me. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #142

So you regard 6,400 deaths as a fair price to pay for your civil liberties intaglio Jul 2013 #166

It's actually a hell of a lot less than that depending on how you define 'child'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #184

So adults don't count intaglio Jul 2013 #187

You started this thread fork crying about children. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #192

The thread began by mentioning deaths - the hint is in the OP intaglio Jul 2013 #196

Worth? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #200

OK so why do you support a no change to the second amendment? intaglio Jul 2013 #204

I'm open to a debate/discussion on altering the 2nd amendment. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #208

Yeah! Taking away our "Civil Liberties"! rdharma Jul 2013 #211

^^This^^ intaglio Jul 2013 #214

I have no idea what the NRA is up to. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #215

The NRA used to be a firearms safety and training organization. rdharma Jul 2013 #226

I agree. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #227

Well...... rdharma Jul 2013 #231

Kind of a silly statement... EX500rider Jul 2013 #205

Swimming pools are not designed to damage, injure and kill intaglio Jul 2013 #207

So, device that outnumbers humans in the US, and is as you said, 'designed to kill' AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #209

So a device that is owned by far fewer humans than there are devices ... intaglio Jul 2013 #216

Handwave away all you want. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #217

How many hours do kids spend in pools? Don't try using statistics intaglio Jul 2013 #220

What does hours in pools have to do with it? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #221

Same as hours in and around cars and hours around guns intaglio Jul 2013 #223

You're being silly. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #224

Time and numbers intaglio Jul 2013 #234

You didn't even answer my question AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #241

Do you want me to take it one word at a time? intaglio Jul 2013 #254

Intent matters. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #258

So you carry your gun to protect human life intaglio Jul 2013 #260

I may also protect human life by taking predatory non-human animal life. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #262

This changes nothing except exposing, again, how you puff yourself up intaglio Jul 2013 #266

You don't know what I do for a living. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #269

I did not make any assumptions about your living intaglio Jul 2013 #276

You realize there are people employed by the state for the purposes of eliminating predatory animals AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #285

Number of pools doesn't matter, as I showed intaglio Jul 2013 #256

Number of pools is directly relevant to figuring out AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #289

Nearly right, intaglio Jul 2013 #292

I don't quite get that argument either.. EX500rider Jul 2013 #212

By design guns are meant to damage, injure and kill intaglio Jul 2013 #219

Hunting isn't a civil right. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #222

We are talking about guns, not hunting intaglio Jul 2013 #229

I didn't say anything about 'sport'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #230

An in another post I pointed out how inefficient fodder hunting is. intaglio Jul 2013 #233

Your definition. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #243

Citation needed intaglio Jul 2013 #252

I highly doubt AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #253

So support your argument about fodder hunting intaglio Jul 2013 #255

No point. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #259

As I pointed out - you are not Superman intaglio Jul 2013 #261

'chance'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #263

And far more innocents have died than bad guys intaglio Jul 2013 #267

Died, yes. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #270

You've come one step intaglio Jul 2013 #274

There are also a lot of lawful DGU's in which no one is killed. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #284

To go back to a false equivalence intaglio Jul 2013 #287

False only because you reject the analogy. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #288

It is not an analogy, it is not even a metaphor it is false equivalence intaglio Jul 2013 #290

I presume you are referring only to accidental deaths? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #293

No, because the victim has to be acted against intaglio Jul 2013 #294

And someone placed involuntarily underwater in the pool? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #295

Nope, you might find a closer parallel intaglio Jul 2013 #297

Univ of Warwick Long Term Historical trends in violent crime One_Life_To_Give Jul 2013 #271

Fine, so what level of death amongst young people due to guns is acceptable? intaglio Jul 2013 #273

0.2 per 100,000 threshold? One_Life_To_Give Jul 2013 #275

So in excess of 6000 deaths per annum intaglio Jul 2013 #277

Beating Carnot Efficiency would be nice too One_Life_To_Give Jul 2013 #279

Please note that I did give the correct figure later in the post intaglio Jul 2013 #280

Guns are irrelevant to the 0.2 Rate One_Life_To_Give Jul 2013 #281

I asked what rate you found acceptable and that was the figure you gave intaglio Jul 2013 #282

Public Perception of the acceptability of using Lethal Force One_Life_To_Give Jul 2013 #283

I can see clearly who the NRA hacks are in this thread..... DainBramaged Jul 2013 #213

^^K&R^^ Progressive dog Jul 2013 #218

and pretend those who die really don't BainsBane Jul 2013 #228

or that the deaths are, comparitively, so few intaglio Jul 2013 #237

Indeed BainsBane Jul 2013 #239

anchor a statement in self-rightousness and knee jerk, get this OP. galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #240

Are you just a drive-by poster? intaglio Jul 2013 #257

Nope BainsBane Jul 2013 #265

Just another gunner showing us a mirror image of themselves DainBramaged Jul 2013 #286

Such words alienate One_Life_To_Give Jul 2013 #272

I don't give a shit DainBramaged Jul 2013 #278

Your notion of tyrannical gun control BainsBane Jul 2013 #296

I already told the NRA that I didn't want to hear from them again......... rdharma Jul 2013 #242

20 pound bag of manure? DainBramaged Jul 2013 #248

Along those lines! rdharma Jul 2013 #250