General Discussion

Whiskeytide

(4,657 posts)

56. I am afraid you ARE wrong...

Tue Jul 2, 2013, 10:24 AM

Jul 2013

The defense doesn't have to "prove" anything. They just have to muddy the waters with some doubt. The prosecution bears the burden of proof, and they must prove their case "beyond a reasonable doubt". Its not supposed to be easy to put someone in prison, and our system is designed to give the accused the benefit of the doubt in almost every phase of the process.

What you have stated in the OP is a good analysis of how the defense may not be able to prove their theories, or at least an observation of the holes in their theories. But that doesn't matter if the prosecution doesn't meet their burden in the first instance, and there are holes in their theories as well. There is not a lot of solid evidence here either way, to be honest, and that means you have to speculate some to reach conclusions of guilt or innocence. Anytime speculation is part of the jury's decision making process, the prosecution is in trouble.

Someone up-thread stated that people here need to be prepared for a not guilty verdict. I suspect they are correct.

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There is not one shred of evidence Zimmerman was defending himself [View all] Shankapotomus Jul 2013 OP

You are not wrong! Not even close! K&R!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #1

Thank you Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #3

Hunt and Peck sucks ass doesn't it snooper2 Jul 2013 #58

Actually, I'm quite fast Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #61

look how fast I replied snooper2 Jul 2013 #63

I worry about carpel tunnel syndrome Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #68

Dragon Naturally Speaking or Windows Speech Recognition onpatrol98 Jul 2013 #104

Zimmerman started the entire thing and continued it until Trayvon was dead lunatica Jul 2013 #2

I remember you from the old DU2 Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #4

I remember your user name too lunatica Jul 2013 #5

Off topic, I know brush Jul 2013 #101

lol...it could.. Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #110

Well stated. (nt) Paladin Jul 2013 #12

Excellent summary! - n/t fleur-de-lisa Jul 2013 #33

+1000000 dionysus Jul 2013 #67

I think Zimmerman was thrilled when he got the opportunity to shoot the Martin kid. reusrename Jul 2013 #84

Yep yardwork Jul 2013 #115

Paranoid cop wanna be. Glimmer of Hope Jul 2013 #147

None at all treestar Jul 2013 #6

and Zimmerman knows it which is why he says he got out of his vehicle to get an address KurtNYC Jul 2013 #7

you neglected Crepuscular Jul 2013 #8

No. The injuries are not proof that he needed to kill Martin in self defense. Dawgs Jul 2013 #9

They are evidence Crepuscular Jul 2013 #16

Unfortunately for your argument, you completely neglect the possibility that Martin was acting ET Awful Jul 2013 #27

Not ignoring that fact at all Crepuscular Jul 2013 #64

The injury on the back of the head easily could have resulted in one fall Sheepshank Jul 2013 #65

maybe not RGR375 Jul 2013 #116

Why would a kid who was LESS than a block away from home start a fight? vaberella Jul 2013 #168

There was testimony traco Jul 2013 #188

But the question is 'who was defending themselves, Zimmerman or Martin?' Dawgs Jul 2013 #31

There is alot of conflicting evidence in this case wercal Jul 2013 #55

Talk about "believe the evidence they like" Dawgs Jul 2013 #62

Its a court case...it doesn't matter what I believe. wercal Jul 2013 #123

The prosecution Crepuscular Jul 2013 #69

We'll see if they can prove it. What you think happened has nothing to do with it. n/t Dawgs Jul 2013 #70

If somebody I don't know follows me carrying a gun, damn right I'll be in fear for my life. ET Awful Jul 2013 #138

Not if you are unaware of it. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #139

So you're telling me that if someone was following you with a gun in an area you had every ET Awful Jul 2013 #153

How would I know he had a gun? Crepuscular Jul 2013 #160

If, as Zimmerman says, Martin reached for his gun, I'd say it's a safe bet that Martin KNEW he had ET Awful Jul 2013 #166

I agree with Crespuscular. Llewlladdwr Jul 2013 #162

So if Martin had any indication Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #53

And. . . . crickets. stranger81 Jul 2013 #140

Some have expresed to me Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #142

It's not necessary to have injuries traco Jul 2013 #189

That is evidence of a struggle Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #10

And the lack of evidence of the beginning of the struggle is thus a hangar full of reasonable doubt Roland99 Jul 2013 #14

Except for the bullet Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #15

That's the end, though. There is plenty of doubt that can be sewed in the minds of the jury... Roland99 Jul 2013 #34

But it seems to me Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #39

True...but if the jury believes Zimmerman feared for his life...welll....... Roland99 Jul 2013 #41

well, that's where I have a problem TorchTheWitch Jul 2013 #119

+++ Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #143

True, premium Jul 2013 #42

The term Crepuscular Jul 2013 #17

Lol Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #20

That is where you John2 Jul 2013 #75

Good post. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #79

I can help you with that... Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #165

Has there been evidence submitted of ANY injuries to Martin? Roland99 Jul 2013 #13

I think i read that undertaker for martin riverbendviewgal Jul 2013 #26

Not necessarily true. Zimmerman could have shown Martin that he had a gun. Dawgs Jul 2013 #32

But that's purely conjecture, eh? Roland99 Jul 2013 #36

Of course, but so is suggesting jury can only come up with conclusion. n/t Dawgs Jul 2013 #38

And who is doing that? I came up with one "likely" scenario given that the defense only need prove.. Roland99 Jul 2013 #40

Same thing I did, and I'm not arguing for whether Z will be found convicted or not. n/t Dawgs Jul 2013 #66

Yes Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #59

wow...how cute. Roland99 Jul 2013 #78

Those so-called injuries are so laughably minor that they must be self-inflicted. mbperrin Jul 2013 #35

Uh-huh, Sure. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #71

There's no real injury there is the point. mbperrin Jul 2013 #121

he would likely be hired as an expert on Fox News. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #144

If Zimmerman feared for his life - if his injuries were so grievous demwing Jul 2013 #44

He was treated at the scene Crepuscular Jul 2013 #114

The chief medical examiner for the county says that Zimmerman's injuries were "small" and ET Awful Jul 2013 #155

Didn't watch the testimony Crepuscular Jul 2013 #157

Some conjecture droidamus2 Jul 2013 #45

pure conjecture Crepuscular Jul 2013 #112

I feel the injuries on his head are too high to have been SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #47

I'm suggesting that Crepuscular Jul 2013 #60

he bumped his head when he fell down and got some scratches. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #145

punches to the nose very rarely are lethal magical thyme Jul 2013 #95

equally plausible Crepuscular Jul 2013 #111

Yes. The killer is not a reliable source of info yardwork Jul 2013 #117

This is because of "stand your ground" DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #102

Sorry. Z was the aggressor by stalking. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #106

Lack of injuries to TM's hands, no blood on them either Marrah_G Jul 2013 #118

I don't believe Crepuscular Jul 2013 #120

I'll check back in after the forensics Marrah_G Jul 2013 #122

The ME testified today that Zimmerman's injuries were insigificant csziggy Jul 2013 #183

He was just acting on the number one gun nut fantasy. onehandle Jul 2013 #11

yep In_The_Wind Jul 2013 #18

Absolutely! reusrename Jul 2013 #85

From your lips to the prosecutions ears! k&r Little Star Jul 2013 #19

Yes Soundman Jul 2013 #21

What does Martin get a pass on? Nt Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #22

Wow, a lot of replies. Soundman Jul 2013 #76

I,personally, am not accusing Z of racism Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #90

He was never convicted of domestic battery, premium Jul 2013 #91

I must have missed the facts in your post. Just Saying Jul 2013 #96

I thought Zimmerman was on trial, not Trayvon Martin. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #146

On the positive side, you've only been on 2 DU juries. uppityperson Jul 2013 #151

I Don't beleive I Soundman Jul 2013 #190

"Zimmerman gets vilified even when the evidence says otherwise?" Dawgs Jul 2013 #37

well, he's dead. the only account we are getting is zimmerman's. ejpoeta Jul 2013 #43

DAMN MARTIN demwing Jul 2013 #46

Don't forget his locked and loaded can of tea... SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #49

OMG the TEA demwing Jul 2013 #51

he gets "a pass" noiretextatique Jul 2013 #128

a pass? he's dead noiretextatique Jul 2013 #127

Racism sucks. demwing Jul 2013 #131

yes, martin gets a pass on everything, including his life.. frylock Jul 2013 #133

Did you know Trayvon Martin was SHOT AND KILLED? Hardly "a pass". Good lord. uppityperson Jul 2013 #154

No you ctsnowman Jul 2013 #23

I predict not guilty of 2nd degree but madville Jul 2013 #24

This sounds like a reasonable conclusion. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #25

I would have to agree Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #28

You assume the onus is on the defense joeglow3 Jul 2013 #29

How about his video re=creation of events and the testimony SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #52

I will not claim to be an expert on the case joeglow3 Jul 2013 #73

Photo Evidence and the cop's testimony of Trayvon's position when SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #81

You and I have a different opinion on what the burden of proof should be joeglow3 Jul 2013 #105

but his own personal standard of self-defense was good enough to justify killing Trayvon? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #148

I believe in objective application of the law joeglow3 Jul 2013 #156

why is the testimony of rachel jeantel worth less than any other testimony? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #158

Where did I say that joeglow3 Jul 2013 #169

no, I didn't say you said it, Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #177

He doesn't need to prove his side joeglow3 Jul 2013 #178

neither side can be proved. nor proven. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #184

Which is why the case is going so well for him joeglow3 Jul 2013 #185

don't agree it's going well for him. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #194

Also Remember Florida is NOT a "retreat to the wall" state. happyslug Jul 2013 #30

Zimmerman is claiming self defense demwing Jul 2013 #50

Florida, the sunshine state where . . . madashelltoo Jul 2013 #74

I think what Zimmerman actually did is legal in FL. Even though he was the aggressor. reusrename Jul 2013 #87

He's not using the SYG defense. nt. premium Jul 2013 #92

I thought that was clear in my post. He chose to lie instead. reusrename Jul 2013 #93

There is nothing illegal premium Jul 2013 #97

The DA didn't have much of a choice here. Had Zimmerman been arrested that night, maybe. reusrename Jul 2013 #100

Judging from what I've seen so far, premium Jul 2013 #103

"I think what Zimmerman actually did is legal in FL." Then there would be no trial. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #108

Correct, that's exactly what I was saying. reusrename Jul 2013 #132

but under Florida law, Trayvon had the same right. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #152

this completely exonerates Trayvon, if he did start the fight Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #150

The statute that you quoted Crepuscular Jul 2013 #191

nothing zimmerman claims can be proved. it's just as likely, or more likely, that he initiated the Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #193

evidence not consistent with Zimmerman's exaggerated claims Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #195

The only evidence for self defense is Zimmerman's word and judgement... Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #48

Exactly SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #57

The evidence Crepuscular Jul 2013 #72

Good lord. Nevernose Jul 2013 #149

No, it's really not. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #159

I will agree on one important point: Nevernose Jul 2013 #161

When I was a kid I didn't want anything Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #164

Zimmerman stalked Martin The Wizard Jul 2013 #54

I am afraid you ARE wrong... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #56

-1 darkangel218 Jul 2013 #77

How am I wrong? Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #82

Zimmy is not gonna be aquitted. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #83

And 99% of America said the same thing premium Jul 2013 #88

The "reality" that, based on... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #99

Granting your argument Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #86

I agree with your frustration... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #89

No, you are not wrong. ReRe Jul 2013 #80

I invite you to read this Florida court decision. onenote Jul 2013 #94

There doesn't need to be kudzu22 Jul 2013 #98

Exactly. Suppose, let's say, a woman had turned on Jack the Ripper & bloodied his face before he WinkyDink Jul 2013 #107

+1 Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #113

Impossible to cover all scenarios RGR375 Jul 2013 #129

No he is still a murderer (Jack the Ripper) RGR375 Jul 2013 #124

I missed the first responder testimony, so LynnTTT Jul 2013 #109

no...you are right noiretextatique Jul 2013 #125

sure there is d_b Jul 2013 #126

the archtype of the dangerous black man noiretextatique Jul 2013 #130

Unfortunately he does not have to prove his innocence, the prosecution has to prove his guilt. DrewFlorida Jul 2013 #134

The state has to prove that it's NOT self defense davidn3600 Jul 2013 #135

Self defense is an affirmative defense gollygee Jul 2013 #136

Not really. DirkGently Jul 2013 #170

Wikipedia isn't a good source. Florida case law is. onenote Jul 2013 #181

You are right. bravenak Jul 2013 #137

simple and excellent. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #141

Kind of. That's not how evidence works. This is not going well for the state. DirkGently Jul 2013 #163

I'm not one to pull my hair out Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #172

Ha. I know. I was addressing "the room" as well. DirkGently Jul 2013 #173

I agree Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #175

Do not put your hands on anybody RGR375 Jul 2013 #176

Jesus god, don't agree with me. DirkGently Jul 2013 #182

I suppose if one ignores the broken nose and lacerations to the head... Llewlladdwr Jul 2013 #167

this has to be a joke Skittles Jul 2013 #171

So killing a kid Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #174

You don't understand criminal legal cases. Much of what you list isn't an element of the crime. Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #179

sadly, a large number of the posts about this trial are made by people who have made no effort onenote Jul 2013 #180

"It doesn't matter that GZ called 911, except to show that he didn't intend to kill TM" Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #192

No, and you are more generous in your assessment than I am. Answer me this: freshwest Jul 2013 #186

We all know how a court or jury Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #187