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Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)

58. Zero times would have sufficed to qualify for self defense if he had a reasonable fear.

Tue Jul 2, 2013, 04:56 PM

Jul 2013

However, the evidence admitted thus far says the number was greater than zero. At least 1 for each observable injury and an assumption might be reasonably made for additional blows that left no noticeable injuries.

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Zimmerman's injuries were insignificant - he LIED [View all] Hugabear Jul 2013 OP

That sounds pretty damaging to Zimmerman's case. nt ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #1

Legal analysts were "mostly unimpressed" with the medical examiner (Orlando Sentinel) Hooray for Pepe Jul 2013 #188

Sounds like he's getting his head slammed now Politicalboi Jul 2013 #2

The cross examination of the medical examiner by Maron is ridiculous. madaboutharry Jul 2013 #3

I agree she's a good witness kudzu22 Jul 2013 #4

Not quite DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #5

A mugger slammed my head against a wall. Once. aquart Jul 2013 #28

But here, it was Zimmerman who had a gun, knew he had it and JDPriestly Jul 2013 #84

I very much get your point, Benton D Struckcheon Jul 2013 #118

-And- in addition to that, PotatoChip Jul 2013 #141

Agree. For me it is first degree murder. He stalked with intent. aquart Jul 2013 #222

Great bodily harm =/= "insignificant" demwing Jul 2013 #6

My point is that it doesn't rest on what Zimmy is thinking DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #7

Maybe, but I was responding to kudzu22 demwing Jul 2013 #13

don't you have another "the sky is falling" thread to post? CatWoman Jul 2013 #8

Doesn't matter. He or she is wrong about the law. DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #10

. NoGOPZone Jul 2013 #17

Not this case. The Defense has to PROVE that Zimmerman's life was in imminent danger. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #11

No they don't. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #18

That's true. I worded it incorrectly but that's what I meant. Thanks!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #21

Your use of capital letters doesn't change Florida law onenote Jul 2013 #20

Well, looks like the Medical Examiner is putting holes in that claim, much to your dismay. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #22

My dismay? I want Zimmerman convicted. I just thought that knowing the law would be useful. onenote Jul 2013 #77

an aside... what does "much to your dismay" add to the value of your post? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #88

The Zimmerman worshippers have no credibility. How's that for explicit? Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #162

ok, bear with me, it's for a good cause. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #172

There'll be another medical "expert" customerserviceguy Jul 2013 #147

This Medical Expert was quite compelling. She didn't waiver. She was very convincing. Very! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #163

Don't underestimate GZ's lawyer customerserviceguy Jul 2013 #177

I'm sure that will be the case, definitely, but nevertheless, she has been the best witness thus far Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #178

True customerserviceguy Jul 2013 #179

No. The prosecution gets the last word in closing JimDandy Jul 2013 #192

If so customerserviceguy Jul 2013 #197

How Does a Jury Decide the Issue of Self-Defense in Florida? DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #31

Where Defendant has presented any evidence of self defense treestar Jul 2013 #62

He doesn't have to testify DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #66

can he be forced to testify? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #90

The jury is not supposed to draw any inferences stranger81 Jul 2013 #122

I presume the secret assumption then is that the person is guilty? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #134

That he's guilty, is hiding something, or any number of other negative assumptions. stranger81 Jul 2013 #168

thanks very much Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #174

Those statements that he made were hearsay, admissible but hearsay. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #101

True but then somehow he has to get in some evidence treestar Jul 2013 #136

a reasonable person would have stayed in the car. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #83

The Bottom Line for me. That has always been the bottom line, but that seems to be neglected Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #164

What would a reasonable person in Zimmerman's position have done? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #97

I don't think if he had his gun in his hand that Trayvon would have punched him.. more likely Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #108

Did Trayvon play football? He might have tried to rush Zimmerman and JDPriestly Jul 2013 #129

I agree with you Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #133

And the victim unarmed? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #135

i think they will noiretextatique Jul 2013 #153

If there is one smart and strong woman on that jury Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #159

Scares the shit out of me as a black woman who has a young brother, cousins, uncles, Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #165

they also have to show that Martin demwing Jul 2013 #56

yes it can. Vattel Jul 2013 #67

Aggressor =/= Initiator demwing Jul 2013 #126

I guess I misunderstood you Vattel Jul 2013 #183

The defense doesn't have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt demwing Jul 2013 #196

The defense doesn't need to establish self-defense even by a preponderance of the evidence. Vattel Jul 2013 #206

Defense doesn't ever have to prove anything. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #59

Thank you. onenote Jul 2013 #79

In affirmative defenses, it does demwing Jul 2013 #103

not in florida Vattel Jul 2013 #207

More than "some" evidence, Self Defense must be shown demwing Jul 2013 #209

The burden of proof for insanity is one thing. Vattel Jul 2013 #210

"But that is not the same as proving" - Yes, you're correct demwing Jul 2013 #211

I think the defense's burden in introducing prima facie evidence Vattel Jul 2013 #212

The long and short is that self defense demwing Jul 2013 #214

You are definitely right about that. Vattel Jul 2013 #215

Just so we're all clear demwing Jul 2013 #216

Just so we're all clear Vattel Jul 2013 #218

"once the defense meets its burden of production (which it clearly can meet in the Zimmerman case)" demwing Jul 2013 #219

I think any reasonable person who knows the law and the facts of the case Vattel Jul 2013 #220

The point is he lied. Nine Jul 2013 #12

That is the point. Zimmerman lied. yardwork Jul 2013 #16

Not material. A person can suffer absolutely no injuries whatsoever and still claim self-defense. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #25

So it's irrelevant that Zimmerman lied about key facts in the incident? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #29

On which point? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #32

If his head was being pounded into a concrete sidewalk he would have needed medical treatment. Dawgs Jul 2013 #35

How is that an absolute certainty? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #38

Legally, you are right. But jurors can get upset with a defendant if he is lying. truedelphi Jul 2013 #54

Declining medical care for observable injuries is not the same as lying about how Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #60

I am not saying that it is the same. But Zimmerman is in the truedelphi Jul 2013 #74

I doubt the bang-count will be a factor. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #82

So, let me get this right: Zimmerman planned to claim self defense. He planned to claim that Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #167

then why LIE about the severity of the injury? noiretextatique Jul 2013 #155

The latter is a key part of the Defendant's version of the former. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #37

And yet, he did sustain injuries. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #44

Non life threatening injuries. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #47

But the contention is -- Martin was on top. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #53

A 5-7, 185 pound guy with MMA training would be at a severe disadvantage in a hand fight? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #57

Being on the bottom and being pummeled, seems to be his contention. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #64

"Numerous injuries" amounts to a bloody nose and two small cuts on his head. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #91

The quantity and severity of injuries is immaterial. I don't know why you keep going back to that. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #107

At most, John Good's testimony corrobrates only a small part of Zimmerman's account. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #111

The ME-who-examines-live-people testified that the injuries were superficial. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #116

So any injury, no matter how superficial, could create a reasonable fear of life threatening injury? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #140

It's not the injury, it's the means by which the injury is being inflicted. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #142

And if his head wasn't actually being repeatedly bashed into concrete.... Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #144

That is a hypothetical that seems to run against current testimony and evidence. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #146

When the defense attorney made that statement, I thought the testifying ME almost gasped. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #121

Severity of injuries is not a factor in a self-defense claim. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #125

The credibility of the person making the claim sure as hell is. Nine Jul 2013 #199

Zimmerman maintains he was on his back being straddled by Martin who Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #203

"and/or"? Nine Jul 2013 #205

It depends completely on the jury, and it is hard to get even six JDPriestly Jul 2013 #119

then why did he lie about what happened? frylock Jul 2013 #34

What supposed lie are you referring to? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #41

that martin bashed GZ's head 20 times against the sidewalk.. frylock Jul 2013 #45

Zimmerman did sustain multiple injuries, as recorded the night of the incident. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #48

20 times, 1-2 times. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #49

Zero times would have sufficed to qualify for self defense if he had a reasonable fear. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #58

someone with reasonable fear would've never started the encounter frylock Jul 2013 #70

A non-sensical statement. You're imposing the conditions of the fight on Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #120

Are you saying any injury sustained in any altercation can create reasonable fear of imminent death? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #72

that's how i'm reading it frylock Jul 2013 #128

Let me handle this one brush Jul 2013 #63

Nonsense. Nowhere is it in the laws of physics that concussion HAS to happen. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #68

Ahhh . . . do you live in the real world? brush Jul 2013 #80

Yes I do and you're BS'ing. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #89

Pls use your head brush Jul 2013 #105

No one but the most pro-Zimmerman bias would believe that, either. It's insane!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #170

I'm not saying self-inflicted brush Jul 2013 #193

yes, as a matter of fact i am.. frylock Jul 2013 #69

Severity of injury is not required for a claim of self-defense Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #76

so a hit upside the head with an iron pipe is no different than a slap across the cheek.. frylock Jul 2013 #93

I have no argument. The instructions to the jury will be -- Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #100

Wrong statute, buddy. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #106

Fair enough. Here -- Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #112

I'm getting to the point believing that Nuclear_Unicorn LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #81

i don't think that at all. i this poster knows exactly what their doing.. frylock Jul 2013 #132

perhaps he's noiretextatique Jul 2013 #156

Bias often clouds sound reason and judgment. You know, like Zimmerman that night. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #171

Many of us have also brush Jul 2013 #191

The count of 1 is a fabrication on your part and has no basis in supporting testimony or evidence. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #202

I am. Raine1967 Jul 2013 #182

Show me RGR375 Jul 2013 #184

Yep, gun nuts will claim all kind of crud when they shoot an unarmed kid for no reason. Hoyt Jul 2013 #42

Yeah, like all those women faking sexual assault. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #46

And the award for the worst analogy ever goes to Just Saying Jul 2013 #114

If all gun owners are, per Hoyt's assertion, simply looking for reasons to arbitrarily kill people Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #124

Sorry, but that is not same thing, not even close. Hoyt Jul 2013 #151

And when have you ever even entertained the idea there was a difference? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #152

We are talking about rape here, unless that is your new defense of Zimmerman. Hoyt Jul 2013 #158

Being caught in a big lie hurts his credibility yardwork Jul 2013 #78

I'm going to guess what the jury is asked to decide is Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #94

I can't imagine what's more important to the decision Just Saying Jul 2013 #154

Someone having their head hit only twice (not that you hvae any evidence to support that) Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #200

The jurors WILL be instructed JimDandy Jul 2013 #194

"Jurists" are judges. Perhaps you meant "jurors." Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #201

Indeed...jurors. n/t JimDandy Jul 2013 #204

Give an example for your supposition. lumpy Jul 2013 #85

What is reasonable to some, is unreasonable to others. Rex Jul 2013 #50

Reasonably? rdharma Jul 2013 #61

Questions (because this is what I find weak about Zimmerman's case): JDPriestly Jul 2013 #73

I think Zimmerman killed Martin unjustifiably. NM_Birder Jul 2013 #9

I'm not sure the prosecution wants to win this case. notadmblnd Jul 2013 #40

OFFS. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #43

It is all about laying the groundwork. LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #92

Perhaps Zimmerman was in fear for his life when he thought of losing the gun. lumpy Jul 2013 #131

they sure have boogered it up so far. NM_Birder Jul 2013 #139

I agree. There was no justification instigating the provocation. LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #86

Zimmerman is so cunning zeeland Jul 2013 #14

I think it was either gun recoil or TorchTheWitch Jul 2013 #149

+1000 zeeland Jul 2013 #190

The minor injuries probaby happened while Trayvon was trying to break free from Zimmerman. BklnDem75 Jul 2013 #15

BS. DUers have been telling me for weeks it's a fact that Zimmerman's head was slammed repeatedly. Dawgs Jul 2013 #19

Right because whatever Zimmerman says must be true. Who would ever believe a young, black Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #23

Apparently a large number of DU'ers would never believe such a "punk" Scootaloo Jul 2013 #30

This message was self-deleted by its author JimDandy Jul 2013 #195

Also, getting your head pounded into concrete is life threatening enough to kill, but not... Dawgs Jul 2013 #36

He didn't get medical attention because... LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #95

Evidently some of the police believed Zimmerman. After all they were not lumpy Jul 2013 #143

It's collusion. That's what it is. The Blue Wall of Silence is protecting Zimmerman. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #173

Ya they also ignore facts, just like Foxnews does. Rex Jul 2013 #51

Not so fast brush Jul 2013 #65

Considering that he did not need any assistance after the incident with mobilization LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #98

Agree. Dawgs Jul 2013 #208

Why would anyone believe anything Zimmerman Ilsa Jul 2013 #24

Zimmerman himself REFUSED to go to the Hospital after the shooting JI7 Jul 2013 #26

I wonder if they will call the mortician, who IIRC said that there was no evidence MADem Jul 2013 #27

That's the testimony that I'm waiting on. If Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the nose Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #176

It wouldn't wash gashes and lesions away, either. MADem Jul 2013 #187

I said that last night. notadmblnd Jul 2013 #33

That's two doctors now Nevernose Jul 2013 #52

Of course he lied. Apophis Jul 2013 #39

Hitting my head on a tree limb HockeyMom Jul 2013 #55

How could a single strike on a tree limb brush Jul 2013 #71

Look at the law RGR375 Jul 2013 #96

Except if it wasn't the concrete sidewalk causing the fear of life threatening injuries.... Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #102

Force meeting force HockeyMom Jul 2013 #148

But you have to believe zimmerman's brush Jul 2013 #104

The key words being "reasonably believed" demwing Jul 2013 #110

Why joule we believe him, though? Nevernose Jul 2013 #157

And then the defense will call a doctor who says they are significant davidn3600 Jul 2013 #75

I think the Physician Assistant that actually saw him has testified and wasn't impressed Hoyt Jul 2013 #180

Hah, I'm pretty sure libodem Jul 2013 #87

This is why imho he is going to rot in jail. Rex Jul 2013 #99

No they are not RGR375 Jul 2013 #109

Yes they are. Rex Jul 2013 #113

Sorry! RGR375 Jul 2013 #169

I Will Agree With You About What People Are Saying... ChiciB1 Jul 2013 #117

You have to admit libodem Jul 2013 #127

True libodem Jul 2013 #137

you have a way with words Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #130

correction: "you got me" noiretextatique Jul 2013 #161

Probably the a$$whole slipped on the wet grass and hit his head on the concrete. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #115

That should be the finishing touches on any reasonable doubt. He is a liar and a murderer. stevenleser Jul 2013 #123

I broken nose is 'insignificant, not life threatening' krawhitham Jul 2013 #138

Especially since it wasn't broken Nevernose Jul 2013 #150

don't confused people with facts noiretextatique Jul 2013 #160

Gee I said this months ago nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #145

Of course, he lied MrScorpio Jul 2013 #166

It's So Very Sad, Regardless Of Whether He Lied Or Not ChiciB1 Jul 2013 #175

We disagree on the facts RGR375 Jul 2013 #181

Then Perhaps, Perhaps... ChiciB1 Jul 2013 #186

That's terrible, so sad, so unexpected... truebluegreen Jul 2013 #185

Not sure he even have to be injured at all NM_Birder Jul 2013 #189

I'd say he inflicted any damage himself davidpdx Jul 2013 #198

They didn't look insignificant in the pictures that I saw. NaturalHigh Jul 2013 #213

They certainly didn't look as if they necessitated shooting anyone demwing Jul 2013 #217

I disagree that any of us know with certainty... NaturalHigh Jul 2013 #221