General Discussion

Pholus

(4,062 posts)

31. It has to be secret for at least one practical reason...

Tue Jul 2, 2013, 04:08 PM

Jul 2013

Justifying "collection" as legal as long as it is unexamined without a warrant is an interpretation NOT restricted to matters of national security by its nature. You've just destroyed the 4th amendment. Why can't a cop simply place cameras on someone's house recording 24 hours a day. At some point in the future, you manage a warrant and then it's all fair game as long as you didn't actually look at the tapes, right?

For a top secret national security program you might decide that the opinion is good enough for you, in the same way that as long as your folks don't find out it's okay to steal from their liquor cabinet. It's a feel good fig leaf and insurance card.

It would never actually fly in the courts nor in the court of public opinion.

THAT is why it is a secret.

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There is absolutely no such thing as a secret body of law in a democracy. [View all] FiveGoodMen Jul 2013 OP

of course, dtom67 Jul 2013 #1

First you have to have a democracy. hobbit709 Jul 2013 #2

Supreme Court: You Can't Challenge Secret Law Because It's Secret PoliticAverse Jul 2013 #3

I got to read that later. TY /nt think Jul 2013 #4

What about in a Representative Republic? NightWatcher Jul 2013 #5

Are secret laws representative? FiveGoodMen Jul 2013 #7

We elect representatives, couldn't they keep secrets from us? NightWatcher Jul 2013 #11

Are you serious? FiveGoodMen Jul 2013 #13

Of course I can. NightWatcher Jul 2013 #14

Secrets and secret LAWS are two different things. FiveGoodMen Jul 2013 #17

If they apply to the citizenry, it'd be nice to know what they are NightWatcher Jul 2013 #19

"it'd be nice to know what they are" FiveGoodMen Jul 2013 #20

admission that secret laws are incompatible with democracy. nashville_brook Jul 2013 #41

Yes nineteen50 Jul 2013 #24

Not if it is secret from our representative. eom Festivito Jul 2013 #23

Ooh! Pedantic hairsplitting! That's always a useful contribution! (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2013 #39

"It is one of the genuine marks of servitude to have the law either concealed or precarious." bemildred Jul 2013 #6

But a Democracy can authorize a secret body of law. nm rhett o rick Jul 2013 #8

You mean a democracy can voluntarily choose to become something else? FiveGoodMen Jul 2013 #9

Senate and House oversight committees jberryhill Jul 2013 #12

Citizens targeted by these secret laws Maedhros Jul 2013 #33

So somebody just decided to make up some laws in secret? Who granted them the authority? Skidmore Jul 2013 #15

A democracy can authorize an agency to operate in secrecy. We do it all the time. rhett o rick Jul 2013 #16

That's not what is implied in the OP. Skidmore Jul 2013 #18

What agency can do that? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #30

Dont get me wrong. I am not advocating for secrecy, nor am I agreeing that rhett o rick Jul 2013 #34

The rules that the FBI is supposed to follow are not that secret. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #42

The key to what you said is that they are "supposed to follow". I think we are learning that these rhett o rick Jul 2013 #43

I just can't argue with you there. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #44

IMO we have a Constitutional Crisis. Laws are on the books today that IMHO clearly rhett o rick Jul 2013 #47

Yes. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #48

Yes nineteen50 Jul 2013 #25

And there isn't one jberryhill Jul 2013 #10

The accusation in your link has NOT been proven yet. tridim Jul 2013 #21

wrong: did you even read the letter? the word 'misinterpreting' isn't even in there. usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #26

Right. There is no doubt at all, and the fearfully defiant international reaction JDPriestly Jul 2013 #49

When I look at the list of Senators who signed it . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #37

K & R !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #22

Secret laws, secret courts, secret spying, secret wars = Government of the people? Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #27

K&R. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #28

I little concerned about people who don't grasp this concept. nt limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #29

It has to be secret for at least one practical reason... Pholus Jul 2013 #31

and this is exactly why the massive spying program is so freaking insidious, and everyone should be NoMoreWarNow Jul 2013 #32

That's the next step. It's coming unless we stop this madness. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #50

The Secret Government warrprayer Jul 2013 #35

I agree Yo_Mama Jul 2013 #36

f'n a - k 'n r nashville_brook Jul 2013 #38

K&R woo me with science Jul 2013 #40

No there isn't, you are correct. But we stopped being a democracy quite a while ago. We tried to sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #45

That's pre-2008 thinking citizen. Your post has been logged. nt Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #46

what's scary is, ignorance of the law is no excuse markiv Jul 2013 #51

you better celebrate your freedom this 4th, because it markiv Jul 2013 #52

That's ProSense Jul 2013 #53

There are, however, secret courts ... FISA ... ahem Bake Jul 2013 #54