General Discussion

Hydra

(14,459 posts)

107. Then don't be on the wrong side of the evidence

Tue Jul 2, 2013, 11:13 PM

Jul 2013

It's pretty easy. I've seen a lot of nuanced discussion about the evidence and where it might lead, and how it ties in with other things.

I've also seen the lowest moment I've ever experienced on DU- the assertion that questioning Gov't lawbreaking must mean you're a racist. That group of people made themselves irrelevant at that point, and badly embarrassed the people they were defending. Since then it hasn't gotten better, and if there were any valid points to what they were saying, they were lost in the noise.

I've seen huge fights on DU in the past about really important issues, but none have so well highlighted what's wrong with our party at the moment(they came close, but nothing this blatant). The problem is that this isn't an issue of perception- there is rule of law, and there is rule of whim. You'll have to pick one.

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What kind of coward is Edward Snowden? [View all] backscatter712 Jul 2013 OP

Plus 1000! peacebird Jul 2013 #1

THANK YOU!!! BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #255

DURec leftstreet Jul 2013 #2

Perfect n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #3

Very, very nice. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #257

+1 Go Vols Jul 2013 #280

Snowden turned 30 years old two Fridays ago. He is a FELONIOUS CRIMINAL running to CHINA/RUSSIA Tx4obama Jul 2013 #4

I too am 30 years old Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #7

Um. Your generation should be trying to grab the reigns now from dog catcher to school board to Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #17

No Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #24

How do you intend to grab those reigns if you don't actually do the work to grab those reigns. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #39

Productivity is up, wages are down Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #45

You are right, it is the young who will change things, it always is. And from what I see, sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #97

Grreat strategy. How does any of that facilitate you grabbing the reigns? Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #136

reins HiPointDem Jul 2013 #167

Indeed. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #175

'nuf said. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #177

The 'Reigns of terror'. You're missing the point entirely. eom Blanks Jul 2013 #258

I think the point was - your best bet is to start building your own infrastructure. calimary Jul 2013 #252

Well, you need to get off the computer, do a little hard work, move up the ladder, MADem Jul 2013 #21

I do not identify myself by my occupation Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #33

Why am I not surprised? MADem Jul 2013 #68

what a nasty post, & completely unprovoked. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #169

You obviously didn't read the thread if that's your POV. MADem Jul 2013 #171

I read your exchange with harmony blue from beginning to end. Your nasty personal remarks HiPointDem Jul 2013 #173

You're certainly an expert on nasty personal remarks, based on previous interactions with you. nt MADem Jul 2013 #179

you made nasty unprovoked personal remarks about harmony blue. your comments about me HiPointDem Jul 2013 #191

And here you come, to save the day.... MADem Jul 2013 #213

my motive is always to note who turned the conversation to the personal. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #232

Yes, indeedy. That's precisely your motive!! No doubt! nt MADem Jul 2013 #239

yes. it is. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #240

No doubt. MADem Jul 2013 #242

Your perception rings true, HiPointDem.....nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #221

*thumbs up* nt Romulus Quirinus Jul 2013 #70

Experience and time has many lessons for you, hope for your sake you use those lessons well. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #82

Haha Hydra Jul 2013 #37

What do you mean, found out what Snowden did? If I worked at his work center and knew MADem Jul 2013 #59

Wahahahaha! Th1onein Jul 2013 #67

You have a squirrel in your pocket? "Us?" Try reading the conversation before you hurt MADem Jul 2013 #72

So Wyden and Udall have been successful in revealing these abuses? Th1onein Jul 2013 #80

Now you're just being creative. MADem Jul 2013 #98

How utterly stupid. Th1onein Jul 2013 #160

Well, maybe they need to get off their "warning" asses and pass some laws. MADem Jul 2013 #178

What do you think about the fact that Clapper lied. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #91

I don't think anything about it. MADem Jul 2013 #106

Read the book, They thought they were free. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #116

Sorry...Godwin. I'm out. You just can't tell me that the US is like a country where MADem Jul 2013 #119

Yup. n/t Agschmid Jul 2013 #121

Wow, so snowden is a bad man for telling the truth. Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #166

No. Snowden is an enigma at this stage--he could be a double agent, he could be MADem Jul 2013 #180

It gets even worse Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #200

You can't argue to save your life. MADem Jul 2013 #211

I don't think pointing out the obvious is an accusation... Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #267

Are you doubling down and repeating your accusation that I am a "fascist" because I don't see things MADem Jul 2013 #269

It's clear to me that you have a reading comprehension problem. nt. Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #273

Mirror, mirror! MADem Jul 2013 #276

Wow Hydra Jul 2013 #71

I am not convinced that this guy's information is accurate. MADem Jul 2013 #78

Obviously, they CAN'T "fix" shit. Th1onein Jul 2013 #87

Well, when lawmakers can't legislate, perhaps they need replacing. MADem Jul 2013 #139

Sorry, but you are dead ass wrong. Th1onein Jul 2013 #154

Don't be sorry, and no, I'm not wrong. MADem Jul 2013 #181

LOL Hydra Jul 2013 #100

LOL, someone still doesn't know what METADATA is. nt MADem Jul 2013 #188

If Snowden had gone to Udall or Wyden, they would have still been sworn to silence. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #88

I'll bet you a donut he didn't go to ANYONE on ANY Intel Committee. EVER. MADem Jul 2013 #186

"contrarians, newbies, and people who come and go" Scootaloo Jul 2013 #109

Look at the ones who are stirring the shit with the greatest glee. MADem Jul 2013 #124

Bwhahaha!!! I laughed when you suggested that Snowden go to the enablers to fix their own mistakes. Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #161

Well, it's obvious that you're easily amused. MADem Jul 2013 #183

Please stop it with the vague internet threat, don't you know that the NSA is listening to you. Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #201

Welcome to DU and enjoy your visit with us. Vague internet threat, indeed! MADem Jul 2013 #210

I laugh for no reason at all to. Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #268

Well, you should be insecure--you are conducting yourself in a rude fashion. MADem Jul 2013 #270

False indignation doesn't strengthen your lack of an argument. NT Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #274

First you get mad because I am laughing, now you insist I am indignant. MADem Jul 2013 #275

Well, it looks like Eddie would have outsmarted you. Apparently he anticipated someone sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #229

Big talk on the internet? Please. MADem Jul 2013 #237

You are wrong LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #236

Yes, you have a nice day, too. Invective is never a substitute for substance. MADem Jul 2013 #238

I applaud him for sashaying out that door and wish Swagman Jul 2013 #263

+1000! sheshe2 Jul 2013 #42

Was the government categorizing, charting and then saving the communications JDPriestly Jul 2013 #77

Ooooh, virtually all Americans! MADem Jul 2013 #85

I am curious. Are you the least bit skeptical that our intelligence agencies might be stepping over rhett o rick Jul 2013 #158

Certainly. They've done it before, they'll do it again. MADem Jul 2013 #185

Drake 'took it up the chain of command' and was persecuted, had his career destroyed and sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #103

Manning stole shit and decked his superior in his chain of command. MADem Jul 2013 #118

Drake's case fell apart because there never was a case against him. He has now reached sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #134

Drake's case fell apart because DOD IG was a bunch of mendacious assholes. MADem Jul 2013 #142

And the current program didn't stop the Boston Bombers. Drake did the right thing sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #146

Drake was dealing with the Bush era DOD IG. MADem Jul 2013 #149

Who prosecuted Drake? Manning? And more importantly, who is prosecuting the War Criminals sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #152

Who dropped charges on Drake, at the end of the day? MADem Jul 2013 #212

I can give you names of some of the Wall St. criminals. Funny how people weren't following sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #217

EVERYONE has the idea that Obama is King. The Obama - bashing on this board rivals that MADem Jul 2013 #219

Yes, we certainly did recognize that something had gone terribly wrong. Enthusiast Jul 2013 #224

Let's hope Writely Wrong Jul 2013 #26

I don't see a rainbow with a pot of gold Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #47

that's true BOG PERSON Jul 2013 #57

Why run? brush Jul 2013 #168

peaceably, stealthily, or helter skelter? hopemountain Jul 2013 #190

Dream on jonthebru Jul 2013 #249

Yes you can and your generation is more powerful than you know Caretha Jul 2013 #266

How would you dare with all this Progressive dog Jul 2013 #277

RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!12 frylock Jul 2013 #9

Really? Pharaoh Jul 2013 #10

I TYPE IN CAPS BECAUSE I DRINK BRAWNDO! Scootaloo Jul 2013 #22

Brawndo made me want to go on a run... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #52

... Scootaloo Jul 2013 #81

Did you have a smoke afterwards?... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #89

No, unfortunately, it makes you a mocking idiot. nm Cha Jul 2013 #93

Mocking idiots is a specialty of mine n/t Scootaloo Jul 2013 #96

Yeah, you'd like to think you're the one who's all cool and all but you're Cha Jul 2013 #172

Specifically I'm mocking their over-the-top, all-caps jingo festival Scootaloo Jul 2013 #176

Because it's got electrolytes neverforget Jul 2013 #108

Snowden is the kind of coward you could only hope to be - nt HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #27

If I had the character that Snowden has I'd jump off of bridge and just end it. Tx4obama Jul 2013 #32

I'll just bet you'd be all down with waterboarding and renditioning him too. As the HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #48

LOL you're funny and you have no clue about what I think or believe about any other... Tx4obama Jul 2013 #66

But you're making it very clear to us what you think, TX4obama! Th1onein Jul 2013 #73

You sheshe2 Jul 2013 #110

This message was self-deleted by its author frylock Jul 2013 #75

So you approve of the secret wholesale spying continued for the criminal bu$h administration? RC Jul 2013 #28

My god, you're right! That DOES mean mass surveillance is ok! /nt Marr Jul 2013 #46

Are you opposed to massive domestic surveillance programs? Warren Stupidity Jul 2013 #50

He never should have been born nineteen50 Jul 2013 #54

Wow, you seem to be extremely angry! Th1onein Jul 2013 #58

You don't understand that when someone steals government secrets, then runs to China to still_one Jul 2013 #112

HEY! DOES IT MATTER THAT THEY ARE SPYING ON YOU? Th1onein Jul 2013 #157

SORRY, BUT ONCE HE WENT INTERNATIONAL, THAT SEALED HIM AS A TRAITOR PERIOD still_one Jul 2013 #189

Wow! An ad hominem attack. Why am I not surprised? Th1onein Jul 2013 #198

This sounds like projection. reusrename Jul 2013 #197

i love your passion BOG PERSON Jul 2013 #62

+1 still_one Jul 2013 #101

Ruh Roh...CAPITALS. Does someone feel threatened? nt wtmusic Jul 2013 #122

Lol, hard to tell if you could really be serious. n-t Logical Jul 2013 #153

which part makes him a criminal Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #159

Yes! He is FELONIOUS. We should all call him Edward "FELONIUS" Snowden from now on. sibelian Jul 2013 #208

coward kardonb Jul 2013 #223

OMG HE'S MAKING ME FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE THINGS ABOUT OBAMA! Maven Jul 2013 #225

So, if the government does it, then it's OK with you? lark Jul 2013 #233

Can't get it out freemay20 Jul 2013 #259

oooga booga!!! the boogey men are under your bed! galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #279

Hear, hear! woo me with science Jul 2013 #5

I wonder who is pulling the strings. MrSlayer Jul 2013 #6

Any idea who? Number23 Jul 2013 #31

IT'S NOT ABOUT SNOWDEN! JaneyVee Jul 2013 #8

True Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #11

Touche! A valid point! backscatter712 Jul 2013 #13

Exactly! JaneyVee Jul 2013 #49

That would have been the case until he moved from domestic spying to international spying still_one Jul 2013 #113

In Europe we think different about that. BB1 Jul 2013 #248

Answer--someone terribly stupid, or suffering from brain damage due to the adult onset MADem Jul 2013 #12

Ah, now you've devolved to disability-bashing. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #14

Please explain, with specificity, how pointing out the effects of epilepsy is "bashing." MADem Jul 2013 #23

Why don't you explain what you meant. There are a lot of people with disabilities on this forum... backscatter712 Jul 2013 #34

Why don't you, since you're so anxious to be offended, spend a little time learning MADem Jul 2013 #144

It IS amazing, the levels they will stoop to, Th1onein Jul 2013 #94

Ooooooooh......THEY!!!! MADem Jul 2013 #145

Um, that is the dumbest post of the internet treestar Jul 2013 #105

A Bush whistleblower is in jail Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #16

Manning grabbed a bunch of shit and gave it to Assange. MADem Jul 2013 #43

k&r usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #19

I love this post... SidDithers Jul 2013 #129

One who did not stay in the country to deal with what he had done treestar Jul 2013 #15

I wouldn't stay in the country Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #18

Oh blah treestar Jul 2013 #102

"One of the least corrupt"? tblue Jul 2013 #230

And you wouldn't be saying the same things about him if he was here and being tortured? Hydra Jul 2013 #44

Right? Romulus Quirinus Jul 2013 #74

Would you really expect him to say here and be tortured as Bradley totodeinhere Jul 2013 #84

The kind who puts everyone who he disagrees with on ignore? Number23 Jul 2013 #20

LOL Hydra Jul 2013 #55

It actually does bug me! I just think it's so damn immature to crow about who you're ignoring Number23 Jul 2013 #65

Many of us are not here to make points or win people over Hydra Jul 2013 #83

I'm here to read. Hard to do that when I've decided that people that don't see the world exactly as Number23 Jul 2013 #95

Then don't be on the wrong side of the evidence Hydra Jul 2013 #107

See, there's that thing called nuance again. Number23 Jul 2013 #132

Preach it sister, and may I associate myself with your remarks? MADem Jul 2013 #218

It's just WEIRD, isn't it? Number23 Jul 2013 #256

I love you; you speak for me, and you had better babylonsister Jul 2013 #260

Harumph, Mr. Plonk doesn't care what you say!!! Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #165

Wish I could rec your post to infinity - n/t HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #25

But, but, but... mindwalker_i Jul 2013 #29

I'm more worried you were not already aware of this... Agschmid Jul 2013 #92

That sounds like a great idea mindwalker_i Jul 2013 #117

It's going to be his best option soon... Agschmid Jul 2013 #120

He's an individual and not rich mindwalker_i Jul 2013 #126

Ummm... Agschmid Jul 2013 #137

Steal state secrets mindwalker_i Jul 2013 #164

Not fighting against him. Agschmid Jul 2013 #196

I disagree specifically because he was informing us of the govt's illegal actions mindwalker_i Jul 2013 #203

Again... Agschmid Jul 2013 #204

Before, it was a very strong suspicion mindwalker_i Jul 2013 #205

I'm done. Agschmid Jul 2013 #207

K&R DeSwiss Jul 2013 #30

Another DURec bvar22 Jul 2013 #35

K&R Cleita Jul 2013 #36

"What Kind Of Coward" would flee to Hong Kong? ProSense Jul 2013 #38

The kind of coward you could only hope to be. - nt HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #76

I don't like being trapped in Russian airports. ProSense Jul 2013 #79

You ought to delete that treestar Jul 2013 #104

Already showing promise as an enduring comeback. wtmusic Jul 2013 #130

If Snowden isn't a coward.. then he should not have acted like one.. Cha Jul 2013 #162

Someone who has been banned from Disneyland for pinching Goofy's ass!! Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #170

The kind of coward that doesn't want to be tortured like Manning n/t eridani Jul 2013 #235

Oh please shawn703 Jul 2013 #40

Selling secrets? Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #51

They keep throwing that accusation, but have no evidence. n/t backscatter712 Jul 2013 #56

The currency shawn703 Jul 2013 #63

Ah, living as an exile under threat of assassination/kidnapping for the rest of his life is freedom. wtmusic Jul 2013 #135

Like Roman Polanski? shawn703 Jul 2013 #195

Roman Polanski exposed evidence of illegal surveillance? wtmusic Jul 2013 #209

Roman Polanski was granted asylum and is wanted by the US shawn703 Jul 2013 #214

Oh, I thought there was a reason why someone would give a crap wtmusic Jul 2013 #215

They all wanted to avoid prosecution for their crimes? shawn703 Jul 2013 #222

Oh come on. Bobby Fischer played a match in Yugoslavia wtmusic Jul 2013 #234

Sad story shawn703 Jul 2013 #243

If they're denying him of the fundamental right of seeking asylum wtmusic Jul 2013 #244

Well shawn703 Jul 2013 #245

I don't think for a second the U.S. is beyond orchestrating a horrible "accident" wtmusic Jul 2013 #250

We will just have to agree to disagree shawn703 Jul 2013 #253

and his 6th amendment rights. he's trying like hell to give those up nt arely staircase Jul 2013 #41

One that was lead by the nose into thinking he'd be a world hero........ Historic NY Jul 2013 #53

+1000. K&R. nt. polly7 Jul 2013 #60

Another screed honoring the douchebag thief... baldguy Jul 2013 #61

Maybe everyone just can't see the forest for the trees. watoos Jul 2013 #64

If the surveilence won't stop Hydra Jul 2013 #114

The kind of person who can't stand to the consequences of his own actions, because doing so could patrice Jul 2013 #69

Those things obviously didn't mean much to him BeyondGeography Jul 2013 #86

The assassin of Yitzhak Rabin was young and thought himself a courageous hero too. Still does. stevenleser Jul 2013 #90

Well, according to some DU posters... Scootaloo Jul 2013 #99

C'mon, compare him to Hitler. I know you want to. wtmusic Jul 2013 #128

I think a discussion of what makes a 'hero' and, conversely, a HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #143

The Heroic kind... on point Jul 2013 #111

He's the kind of coward who won't stand up, and prefers to hide frazzled Jul 2013 #115

If he had stood up you never would have heard his name, would you? wtmusic Jul 2013 #125

Of course we would have frazzled Jul 2013 #133

Never in a million years. wtmusic Jul 2013 #138

Remember Jose Padilla? Due process really served HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #148

Jose who? wtmusic Jul 2013 #156

+1 And the one who has his dad hook up a Libertarian Neo-Con Lawyer for him flamingdem Jul 2013 #131

The kind who hates Social Security, the US Government, and personal responsibility CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #123

A relatively sane one, who realizes the US is a police state. PDJane Jul 2013 #127

Sounds like you're in the slammer railsback Jul 2013 #147

I'm outside of the US, gratefully. PDJane Jul 2013 #199

Ah. Yes, easy to imagine the worst when not living it. railsback Jul 2013 #206

A stupid one who couldn't see past his nose. Lil Missy Jul 2013 #140

K&R. wtmusic Jul 2013 #141

The coordinated anti-Snowden brigade will be all miffed about this thread. Forgot10Hiro Jul 2013 #150

They already are. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #174

What kind of coward? One that is a TRAITOR! SoapBox Jul 2013 #151

Lol, drunk? Me too! n-t Logical Jul 2013 #155

Why did he run? brush Jul 2013 #163

It was sad to see so many DUers flinging poop at Snowden upi402 Jul 2013 #182

We SO need unrec back. Lady Freedom Returns Jul 2013 #184

Ha. moondust Jul 2013 #187

I think the author is confusing Summer Hathaway Jul 2013 #192

The kind of coward blue cat Jul 2013 #193

1. Man, it's exciting, isn't it? Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #194

He's no coward, but that doesn't, in itself, make him a hero. It's not just intentions that count. leveymg Jul 2013 #202

Mostly he is just Human, and i think it is quite easy to afford him that nolabels Jul 2013 #216

Kicked and Recommended! nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #220

coward? nah..just a dumb ass madrchsod Jul 2013 #226

"I am not here to try and hide from justice." randome Jul 2013 #227

K & R !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #228

I agree. He's not a coward. Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #231

thank you yurbud Jul 2013 #241

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #246

Some people argue terrorists aren't cowards as well michigandem58 Jul 2013 #247

I love how you guys harp "PROVE IT!!!!!111!!!" when it comes to the NSA Democracyinkind Jul 2013 #251

At 29, I still obediently accepted big brother's every proclamation and edict. At 35, I began to indepat Jul 2013 #254

Who cares if he's a coward, Progressive dog Jul 2013 #261

K&R pam4water Jul 2013 #262

They're waking up ProSense Jul 2013 #264

Perfect timing! Theoted Jul 2013 #265

Perhaps calling him a coward isn't accurate... Blanks Jul 2013 #271

If the U.S. wasn't supermaxing and torturing people and giving them kangaroo trials... backscatter712 Jul 2013 #272

The solution to that is not handle it the way Manning did. Blanks Jul 2013 #278

Kick n-t Logical Jul 2013 #281

I would change the word coward to traitor. . B Calm Jul 2013 #282