General Discussion

Vattel

(9,289 posts)

215. You are definitely right about that.

Wed Jul 3, 2013, 09:55 PM

Jul 2013

Sometimes the defense has the burden of persuasion, as in your example of the insanity defense in Florida. In self-defense cases in Florida, however, the defense doesn't really have to prove anything. They have to make a prima facie case that the defendant's behavior was justifiable self-defense. This means that they have to introduce "facts" (even disputed claims will do) that, by themselves, and without even considering evidence on the other side, make it reasonable to think that the defendant's behavior was justifiable self-defense. The relevant standard cannot be the preponderance of evidence standard because applying that standard requires weighing evidence for and against and a prima facie case does not need to even address any evidence on the other side.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

222 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Zimmerman's injuries were insignificant - he LIED [View all] Hugabear Jul 2013 OP

That sounds pretty damaging to Zimmerman's case. nt ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #1

Legal analysts were "mostly unimpressed" with the medical examiner (Orlando Sentinel) Hooray for Pepe Jul 2013 #188

Sounds like he's getting his head slammed now Politicalboi Jul 2013 #2

The cross examination of the medical examiner by Maron is ridiculous. madaboutharry Jul 2013 #3

I agree she's a good witness kudzu22 Jul 2013 #4

Not quite DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #5

A mugger slammed my head against a wall. Once. aquart Jul 2013 #28

But here, it was Zimmerman who had a gun, knew he had it and JDPriestly Jul 2013 #84

I very much get your point, Benton D Struckcheon Jul 2013 #118

-And- in addition to that, PotatoChip Jul 2013 #141

Agree. For me it is first degree murder. He stalked with intent. aquart Jul 2013 #222

Great bodily harm =/= "insignificant" demwing Jul 2013 #6

My point is that it doesn't rest on what Zimmy is thinking DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #7

Maybe, but I was responding to kudzu22 demwing Jul 2013 #13

don't you have another "the sky is falling" thread to post? CatWoman Jul 2013 #8

Doesn't matter. He or she is wrong about the law. DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #10

. NoGOPZone Jul 2013 #17

Not this case. The Defense has to PROVE that Zimmerman's life was in imminent danger. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #11

No they don't. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #18

That's true. I worded it incorrectly but that's what I meant. Thanks!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #21

Your use of capital letters doesn't change Florida law onenote Jul 2013 #20

Well, looks like the Medical Examiner is putting holes in that claim, much to your dismay. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #22

My dismay? I want Zimmerman convicted. I just thought that knowing the law would be useful. onenote Jul 2013 #77

an aside... what does "much to your dismay" add to the value of your post? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #88

The Zimmerman worshippers have no credibility. How's that for explicit? Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #162

ok, bear with me, it's for a good cause. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #172

There'll be another medical "expert" customerserviceguy Jul 2013 #147

This Medical Expert was quite compelling. She didn't waiver. She was very convincing. Very! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #163

Don't underestimate GZ's lawyer customerserviceguy Jul 2013 #177

I'm sure that will be the case, definitely, but nevertheless, she has been the best witness thus far Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #178

True customerserviceguy Jul 2013 #179

No. The prosecution gets the last word in closing JimDandy Jul 2013 #192

If so customerserviceguy Jul 2013 #197

How Does a Jury Decide the Issue of Self-Defense in Florida? DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #31

Where Defendant has presented any evidence of self defense treestar Jul 2013 #62

He doesn't have to testify DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #66

can he be forced to testify? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #90

The jury is not supposed to draw any inferences stranger81 Jul 2013 #122

I presume the secret assumption then is that the person is guilty? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #134

That he's guilty, is hiding something, or any number of other negative assumptions. stranger81 Jul 2013 #168

thanks very much Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #174

Those statements that he made were hearsay, admissible but hearsay. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #101

True but then somehow he has to get in some evidence treestar Jul 2013 #136

a reasonable person would have stayed in the car. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #83

The Bottom Line for me. That has always been the bottom line, but that seems to be neglected Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #164

What would a reasonable person in Zimmerman's position have done? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #97

I don't think if he had his gun in his hand that Trayvon would have punched him.. more likely Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #108

Did Trayvon play football? He might have tried to rush Zimmerman and JDPriestly Jul 2013 #129

I agree with you Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #133

And the victim unarmed? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #135

i think they will noiretextatique Jul 2013 #153

If there is one smart and strong woman on that jury Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #159

Scares the shit out of me as a black woman who has a young brother, cousins, uncles, Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #165

they also have to show that Martin demwing Jul 2013 #56

yes it can. Vattel Jul 2013 #67

Aggressor =/= Initiator demwing Jul 2013 #126

I guess I misunderstood you Vattel Jul 2013 #183

The defense doesn't have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt demwing Jul 2013 #196

The defense doesn't need to establish self-defense even by a preponderance of the evidence. Vattel Jul 2013 #206

Defense doesn't ever have to prove anything. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #59

Thank you. onenote Jul 2013 #79

In affirmative defenses, it does demwing Jul 2013 #103

not in florida Vattel Jul 2013 #207

More than "some" evidence, Self Defense must be shown demwing Jul 2013 #209

The burden of proof for insanity is one thing. Vattel Jul 2013 #210

"But that is not the same as proving" - Yes, you're correct demwing Jul 2013 #211

I think the defense's burden in introducing prima facie evidence Vattel Jul 2013 #212

The long and short is that self defense demwing Jul 2013 #214

You are definitely right about that. Vattel Jul 2013 #215

Just so we're all clear demwing Jul 2013 #216

Just so we're all clear Vattel Jul 2013 #218

"once the defense meets its burden of production (which it clearly can meet in the Zimmerman case)" demwing Jul 2013 #219

I think any reasonable person who knows the law and the facts of the case Vattel Jul 2013 #220

The point is he lied. Nine Jul 2013 #12

That is the point. Zimmerman lied. yardwork Jul 2013 #16

Not material. A person can suffer absolutely no injuries whatsoever and still claim self-defense. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #25

So it's irrelevant that Zimmerman lied about key facts in the incident? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #29

On which point? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #32

If his head was being pounded into a concrete sidewalk he would have needed medical treatment. Dawgs Jul 2013 #35

How is that an absolute certainty? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #38

Legally, you are right. But jurors can get upset with a defendant if he is lying. truedelphi Jul 2013 #54

Declining medical care for observable injuries is not the same as lying about how Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #60

I am not saying that it is the same. But Zimmerman is in the truedelphi Jul 2013 #74

I doubt the bang-count will be a factor. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #82

So, let me get this right: Zimmerman planned to claim self defense. He planned to claim that Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #167

then why LIE about the severity of the injury? noiretextatique Jul 2013 #155

The latter is a key part of the Defendant's version of the former. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #37

And yet, he did sustain injuries. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #44

Non life threatening injuries. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #47

But the contention is -- Martin was on top. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #53

A 5-7, 185 pound guy with MMA training would be at a severe disadvantage in a hand fight? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #57

Being on the bottom and being pummeled, seems to be his contention. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #64

"Numerous injuries" amounts to a bloody nose and two small cuts on his head. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #91

The quantity and severity of injuries is immaterial. I don't know why you keep going back to that. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #107

At most, John Good's testimony corrobrates only a small part of Zimmerman's account. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #111

The ME-who-examines-live-people testified that the injuries were superficial. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #116

So any injury, no matter how superficial, could create a reasonable fear of life threatening injury? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #140

It's not the injury, it's the means by which the injury is being inflicted. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #142

And if his head wasn't actually being repeatedly bashed into concrete.... Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #144

That is a hypothetical that seems to run against current testimony and evidence. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #146

When the defense attorney made that statement, I thought the testifying ME almost gasped. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #121

Severity of injuries is not a factor in a self-defense claim. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #125

The credibility of the person making the claim sure as hell is. Nine Jul 2013 #199

Zimmerman maintains he was on his back being straddled by Martin who Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #203

"and/or"? Nine Jul 2013 #205

It depends completely on the jury, and it is hard to get even six JDPriestly Jul 2013 #119

then why did he lie about what happened? frylock Jul 2013 #34

What supposed lie are you referring to? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #41

that martin bashed GZ's head 20 times against the sidewalk.. frylock Jul 2013 #45

Zimmerman did sustain multiple injuries, as recorded the night of the incident. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #48

20 times, 1-2 times. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #49

Zero times would have sufficed to qualify for self defense if he had a reasonable fear. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #58

someone with reasonable fear would've never started the encounter frylock Jul 2013 #70

A non-sensical statement. You're imposing the conditions of the fight on Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #120

Are you saying any injury sustained in any altercation can create reasonable fear of imminent death? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #72

that's how i'm reading it frylock Jul 2013 #128

Let me handle this one brush Jul 2013 #63

Nonsense. Nowhere is it in the laws of physics that concussion HAS to happen. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #68

Ahhh . . . do you live in the real world? brush Jul 2013 #80

Yes I do and you're BS'ing. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #89

Pls use your head brush Jul 2013 #105

No one but the most pro-Zimmerman bias would believe that, either. It's insane!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #170

I'm not saying self-inflicted brush Jul 2013 #193

yes, as a matter of fact i am.. frylock Jul 2013 #69

Severity of injury is not required for a claim of self-defense Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #76

so a hit upside the head with an iron pipe is no different than a slap across the cheek.. frylock Jul 2013 #93

I have no argument. The instructions to the jury will be -- Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #100

Wrong statute, buddy. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #106

Fair enough. Here -- Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #112

I'm getting to the point believing that Nuclear_Unicorn LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #81

i don't think that at all. i this poster knows exactly what their doing.. frylock Jul 2013 #132

perhaps he's noiretextatique Jul 2013 #156

Bias often clouds sound reason and judgment. You know, like Zimmerman that night. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #171

Many of us have also brush Jul 2013 #191

The count of 1 is a fabrication on your part and has no basis in supporting testimony or evidence. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #202

I am. Raine1967 Jul 2013 #182

Show me RGR375 Jul 2013 #184

Yep, gun nuts will claim all kind of crud when they shoot an unarmed kid for no reason. Hoyt Jul 2013 #42

Yeah, like all those women faking sexual assault. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #46

And the award for the worst analogy ever goes to Just Saying Jul 2013 #114

If all gun owners are, per Hoyt's assertion, simply looking for reasons to arbitrarily kill people Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #124

Sorry, but that is not same thing, not even close. Hoyt Jul 2013 #151

And when have you ever even entertained the idea there was a difference? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #152

We are talking about rape here, unless that is your new defense of Zimmerman. Hoyt Jul 2013 #158

Being caught in a big lie hurts his credibility yardwork Jul 2013 #78

I'm going to guess what the jury is asked to decide is Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #94

I can't imagine what's more important to the decision Just Saying Jul 2013 #154

Someone having their head hit only twice (not that you hvae any evidence to support that) Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #200

The jurors WILL be instructed JimDandy Jul 2013 #194

"Jurists" are judges. Perhaps you meant "jurors." Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #201

Indeed...jurors. n/t JimDandy Jul 2013 #204

Give an example for your supposition. lumpy Jul 2013 #85

What is reasonable to some, is unreasonable to others. Rex Jul 2013 #50

Reasonably? rdharma Jul 2013 #61

Questions (because this is what I find weak about Zimmerman's case): JDPriestly Jul 2013 #73

I think Zimmerman killed Martin unjustifiably. NM_Birder Jul 2013 #9

I'm not sure the prosecution wants to win this case. notadmblnd Jul 2013 #40

OFFS. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #43

It is all about laying the groundwork. LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #92

Perhaps Zimmerman was in fear for his life when he thought of losing the gun. lumpy Jul 2013 #131

they sure have boogered it up so far. NM_Birder Jul 2013 #139

I agree. There was no justification instigating the provocation. LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #86

Zimmerman is so cunning zeeland Jul 2013 #14

I think it was either gun recoil or TorchTheWitch Jul 2013 #149

+1000 zeeland Jul 2013 #190

The minor injuries probaby happened while Trayvon was trying to break free from Zimmerman. BklnDem75 Jul 2013 #15

BS. DUers have been telling me for weeks it's a fact that Zimmerman's head was slammed repeatedly. Dawgs Jul 2013 #19

Right because whatever Zimmerman says must be true. Who would ever believe a young, black Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #23

Apparently a large number of DU'ers would never believe such a "punk" Scootaloo Jul 2013 #30

This message was self-deleted by its author JimDandy Jul 2013 #195

Also, getting your head pounded into concrete is life threatening enough to kill, but not... Dawgs Jul 2013 #36

He didn't get medical attention because... LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #95

Evidently some of the police believed Zimmerman. After all they were not lumpy Jul 2013 #143

It's collusion. That's what it is. The Blue Wall of Silence is protecting Zimmerman. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #173

Ya they also ignore facts, just like Foxnews does. Rex Jul 2013 #51

Not so fast brush Jul 2013 #65

Considering that he did not need any assistance after the incident with mobilization LiberalFighter Jul 2013 #98

Agree. Dawgs Jul 2013 #208

Why would anyone believe anything Zimmerman Ilsa Jul 2013 #24

Zimmerman himself REFUSED to go to the Hospital after the shooting JI7 Jul 2013 #26

I wonder if they will call the mortician, who IIRC said that there was no evidence MADem Jul 2013 #27

That's the testimony that I'm waiting on. If Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the nose Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #176

It wouldn't wash gashes and lesions away, either. MADem Jul 2013 #187

I said that last night. notadmblnd Jul 2013 #33

That's two doctors now Nevernose Jul 2013 #52

Of course he lied. Apophis Jul 2013 #39

Hitting my head on a tree limb HockeyMom Jul 2013 #55

How could a single strike on a tree limb brush Jul 2013 #71

Look at the law RGR375 Jul 2013 #96

Except if it wasn't the concrete sidewalk causing the fear of life threatening injuries.... Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #102

Force meeting force HockeyMom Jul 2013 #148

But you have to believe zimmerman's brush Jul 2013 #104

The key words being "reasonably believed" demwing Jul 2013 #110

Why joule we believe him, though? Nevernose Jul 2013 #157

And then the defense will call a doctor who says they are significant davidn3600 Jul 2013 #75

I think the Physician Assistant that actually saw him has testified and wasn't impressed Hoyt Jul 2013 #180

Hah, I'm pretty sure libodem Jul 2013 #87

This is why imho he is going to rot in jail. Rex Jul 2013 #99

No they are not RGR375 Jul 2013 #109

Yes they are. Rex Jul 2013 #113

Sorry! RGR375 Jul 2013 #169

I Will Agree With You About What People Are Saying... ChiciB1 Jul 2013 #117

You have to admit libodem Jul 2013 #127

True libodem Jul 2013 #137

you have a way with words Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #130

correction: "you got me" noiretextatique Jul 2013 #161

Probably the a$$whole slipped on the wet grass and hit his head on the concrete. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #115

That should be the finishing touches on any reasonable doubt. He is a liar and a murderer. stevenleser Jul 2013 #123

I broken nose is 'insignificant, not life threatening' krawhitham Jul 2013 #138

Especially since it wasn't broken Nevernose Jul 2013 #150

don't confused people with facts noiretextatique Jul 2013 #160

Gee I said this months ago nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #145

Of course, he lied MrScorpio Jul 2013 #166

It's So Very Sad, Regardless Of Whether He Lied Or Not ChiciB1 Jul 2013 #175

We disagree on the facts RGR375 Jul 2013 #181

Then Perhaps, Perhaps... ChiciB1 Jul 2013 #186

That's terrible, so sad, so unexpected... truebluegreen Jul 2013 #185

Not sure he even have to be injured at all NM_Birder Jul 2013 #189

I'd say he inflicted any damage himself davidpdx Jul 2013 #198

They didn't look insignificant in the pictures that I saw. NaturalHigh Jul 2013 #213

They certainly didn't look as if they necessitated shooting anyone demwing Jul 2013 #217

I disagree that any of us know with certainty... NaturalHigh Jul 2013 #221