General Discussion

Martin Eden

(15,587 posts)

64. au contrair 2

Thu Jul 4, 2013, 12:35 PM

Jul 2013

I've been debating in the "Probably the best 2nd Amendment speech ever" thread in which an Iraq war veteran claimed he was fighting for our Constitutional rights overseas, only to find his "right" had been taken away by the SAFE gun law in New York. Additionally, as I recall (don't have the source handy) a higher percentage of troops in Iraq (higher than the general public) believed the lies and even thought Saddam had a hand in 9-11.

Finally, I never implied the rhetoric wasn't meant for the public at large to gain support for the war. In a different forum I recently posted this:

The theme of "How we go to war" reminded me of this interview of Herman Goering during the Nuremburg war crimes:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Interviewer: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

I understand better than the "average dumbshit American" how our nation is thrust into these wars, and I also understand that some soldiers know this while others prefer to believe otherwise (like the classmates in the OP of this thread).

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This may not be a popular idea, but we didn't fight for your freedom. [View all] upaloopa Jul 2013 OP

Unfortunately, true.... Wounded Bear Jul 2013 #1

+1 lsewpershad Jul 2013 #68

K&R "War is a racket" think Jul 2013 #2

Sad but true fjlovato Jul 2013 #7

Yep. There is always a case for self defense but most of our wars don't qualify... think Jul 2013 #16

The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq did "pay for themselves..." hunter Jul 2013 #39

Doh! think Jul 2013 #41

The celebration kicked off early in our community last night... hunter Jul 2013 #65

Yep. Paid for themselves, if you don't count taxpayers. merrily Jul 2013 #102

K&R 99Forever Jul 2013 #3

War is a Racket. Arctic Dave Jul 2013 #4

K&R Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 #5

Well put: "for the growing of the wealth of the 1%." Smarmie Doofus Jul 2013 #6

I wish I could rec this more than once! Martin Eden Jul 2013 #8

au contrair pasto76 Jul 2013 #12

au contrair 2 Martin Eden Jul 2013 #64

Which rhetoric is for dumbshit Americans who want to feel like tough guys? merrily Jul 2013 #75

The Real 1% 4Q2u2 Jul 2013 #152

Something very few vets come to terms with easily once we come home. marble falls Jul 2013 #9

Many vets see themselves The Wizard Jul 2013 #25

Pure wizardry! Enthusiast Jul 2013 #48

Hey, don't spoil the brainwashing! nt valerief Jul 2013 #10

Every 4th and Memorial Day.. I honor those who serve.. especially Peacetrain Jul 2013 #11

Honor our service, but don't accept uncritically what we served for. marble falls Jul 2013 #31

Very well put. Hoyt Jul 2013 #56

+1000. premium Jul 2013 #66

Here, here! brush Jul 2013 #141

+1 n/t pitbullgirl1965 Jul 2013 #145

What's the point of freedom without $? We fought those wars for our economic security JackN415 Jul 2013 #13

I guess people need reasons to justify war. Yours is a new one to me. I assume you are not being upaloopa Jul 2013 #15

1- sarcastic or not depending on your interpretation. 2- where did I say that this... JackN415 Jul 2013 #23

Then clearly it's not about "freedom," tblue Jul 2013 #121

Not to defend it in the slightest, but his is one of the oldest justifications for war there is. Posteritatis Jul 2013 #114

For rich folk's economic security. Lex Jul 2013 #19

Yes, we did. The trickled down stuffs in their pants. Don't you know? JackN415 Jul 2013 #24

No. This is one of the most important myths... JackRiddler Jul 2013 #58

It's best to leave to historians like Gibbon, Durant, or... JackN415 Jul 2013 #74

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #27

American Workers Used to get a Cut of the Spoils ... HumansAndResources Jul 2013 #125

Do you have a mouse in you pocket? rdharma Jul 2013 #28

our=the USA. How to divide the spoil between the ruling elite and the dead soldiers.. JackN415 Jul 2013 #35

"Trickle Down", eh? rdharma Jul 2013 #37

You can always negotiate for a better piece real estate on a memorial wall for your name JackN415 Jul 2013 #40

There are other means to economic security. War is about the worst choice. gtar100 Jul 2013 #32

please see this:http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3167014 JackN415 Jul 2013 #36

This message was self-deleted by its author JackN415 Jul 2013 #77

Holy shit. WilliamPitt Jul 2013 #33

Nice admission burnodo Jul 2013 #44

So we fought wars for economic security. Maedhros Jul 2013 #104

All the money down the drain for wars and "defense" contractors Arugula Latte Jul 2013 #135

In other words - sibelian Jul 2013 #136

armed robbery JackN415 Jul 2013 #150

You said all... Sancho Jul 2013 #14

Thanks for saying it. zeemike Jul 2013 #17

I say again The Wizard Jul 2013 #18

Well, if not the Vietcong, then the next domino like Malaysians... then JackN415 Jul 2013 #30

Logic is not your forte: slippery-slope SkyIsGrey Jul 2013 #42

History is not your forte. When were you born? google "Domino theory" Vietnam war. JackN415 Jul 2013 #46

I know of it. SkyIsGrey Jul 2013 #55

Parody and satire are not your forte. Ever read things like the Onion? JackN415 Jul 2013 #71

More like Poe's law. SkyIsGrey Jul 2013 #83

Think he just forgot the sarcasm tag. nt brush Jul 2013 #142

Are you aware that we LOST the War in Vietnam? bvar22 Jul 2013 #86

We did????? when? :D ... my post was a satire of the unbelievably stupid domino theory JackN415 Jul 2013 #100

Dominoe's............ JimboBillyBubbaBob Jul 2013 #146

"Parody and satire are not your forte." bvar22 Jul 2013 #109

and like humor and beauty... it's a matter of taste JackN415 Jul 2013 #115

Don't forget Brewinblue Jul 2013 #82

You can't escape the fate that the sun will be a Red giant and swallow the whole earth eventually JackN415 Jul 2013 #90

Bwaahahahahaha! truebluegreen Jul 2013 #106

Vietnam is communist what have we lost? upaloopa Jul 2013 #96

Psst: I don't think he is being serious truebluegreen Jul 2013 #107

This is too true, however, Curmudgeoness Jul 2013 #20

That's right... ReRe Jul 2013 #21

PLUS ONE! Enthusiast Jul 2013 #54

Thanks, Enthusiast... ReRe Jul 2013 #61

I served and Vietnameravet Jul 2013 #22

WW2 is truly a moral war and those who served should be very proud JackN415 Jul 2013 #43

I think if you look at the difference between N and S Korea 7962 Jul 2013 #118

We've disagreed on Snowden before today, but I wanted to let you know that you and your generation HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #108

Thank you, upaloopa. Octafish Jul 2013 #26

Thanks for the truth on a jingoistic holiday... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #29

Actually it was the Vietnamese who were fighting for their freedom. Zen Democrat Jul 2013 #34

Yes but misguided. It was a civil war and we had better not got involved, the way we JackN415 Jul 2013 #50

Factual. Enthusiast Jul 2013 #59

My dad, who served in the USAF for 23 years, probably felt this way. kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #38

Those that cheer the wars are invariably chickenhawks. nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #60

You and I kinda got into this yesterday premium Jul 2013 #45

Exactly...........nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #62

Good post. Hoyt Jul 2013 #63

lovely response Skittles Jul 2013 #72

I also found names of my friends on the Wall. upaloopa Jul 2013 #99

I never said anything about glory, premium Jul 2013 #101

Vietnam was different. pitbullgirl1965 Jul 2013 #151

Thank you pitbullgirl1965. nt. premium Jul 2013 #153

I don't want to hijack the thread--actually add to the idea-- mnhtnbb Jul 2013 #47

I was walking in Ben Hoa in Feb 1968 after it was upaloopa Jul 2013 #105

And 45 years later you probably wouldn't recognize Vietnam. mnhtnbb Jul 2013 #110

I should have said 45 years later, I keep losing track of time the older I get. One of the things upaloopa Jul 2013 #130

It is a simple concept Rain Mcloud Jul 2013 #49

It is a lot more complex than that treestar Jul 2013 #51

I think this applies to the US Civil War, too. 12AngryBorneoWildmen Jul 2013 #52

The war for The Carlyle Group, Booz Allen, et al Civilization2 Jul 2013 #53

Well said. nt rrneck Jul 2013 #57

Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger L0oniX Jul 2013 #67

I agree completely. Arugula Latte Jul 2013 #69

Powerful post and comments pitbullgirl1965 Jul 2013 #143

I agreed with Kosovo. East Coast Pirate Jul 2013 #70

Thank you for your insight and candor. merrily Jul 2013 #73

There were 2,594,000 U.S. troops in Viet Nam from 65-73. You don't speak for all Vets. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #76

It's not just my opinion, it is the truth. upaloopa Jul 2013 #129

Agreed upaloopa..... BrainDrain Jul 2013 #139

You say "patriotism will always be exploited" How can that be if none of the 2.5 million Viet Nam AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #156

Since there were 2,594,000 of us in Viet Nam, I don't consider the status of one person as being a AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #157

I was drafted and I been through all that shit upaloopa Jul 2013 #159

Your special claim as a Viet Nam vet and your irrational insults don't make what you say to be true. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #160

Look, all I said was we didn't fight to protect our freedoms. You added all the extra shit around upaloopa Jul 2013 #161

Agreed. I'd say WWII was the last war where our freedom was seriously threatened. geckosfeet Jul 2013 #78

And during WWII there was some effort to go after the war profiteers dflprincess Jul 2013 #123

My only problem with the phrase" Freedom isn't free" is that these people aren't included: hedgehog Jul 2013 #79

And that is essentially why I don't support the troops. MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #80

Absolutely-even during the Civil war, it was the poor man fighting the rich mans war KrazyinKS Jul 2013 #81

Rich people are always fucking over the poor people -- always have, always will Jessy169 Jul 2013 #84

Yep. If poor people let them. merrily Jul 2013 #97

We haven't had a Pearl Harbor because countries don't think like that anymore.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #85

Tell that to Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, et al. merrily Jul 2013 #87

You just did. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #93

Actually, I didn't. merrily Jul 2013 #95

Didn't you hear? They're monitoring us right now. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #98

M.A.D. obsoleted massive war between superpowers Jessy169 Jul 2013 #89

What we have are frustrated people fed up with being told to know their place.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #91

K&R idwiyo Jul 2013 #88

Absolutely, positively, Nailed It. bvar22 Jul 2013 #92

Thanks for stating this plainly. Every time I attend a sporting event a LibDemAlways Jul 2013 #94

Exactly. We used to have season tickets to football games at UNC. mnhtnbb Jul 2013 #155

I think its funny, Eisenhower,giving advice on war??? LOL. All Eisenhower gave us was Nixon. nt. graham4anything Jul 2013 #103

Korea was an exception DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #111

Eisenhower was concerned that the MIC costs would prevent building schools & hospitals. SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #112

kr HiPointDem Jul 2013 #113

A government of, by, and for the corporations will tend to fight and scrape for every scrap indepat Jul 2013 #116

We have been attacked since Pearl Harbor: 9/11/2001. intheflow Jul 2013 #117

Thank you for your service, upaloopa mike dub Jul 2013 #119

Please don't forget..... TinkerTot55 Jul 2013 #120

General Smedley Darlington Butler, 1933 Triana Jul 2013 #122

This may also not be popular, but we didn't ask you to. ElboRuum Jul 2013 #124

I am not one to tell you that you are lucky for anything. I was drafted in April 1966. My draft upaloopa Jul 2013 #126

K & R, from another Vietnam Vet. AnotherDreamWeaver Jul 2013 #127

The Ohio Company formed before the USA. Hooray USA, built on genocide! Coyotl Jul 2013 #128

Thank you -- this so needed to be said! markpkessinger Jul 2013 #131

They fought for the freedom of Big Oil, Big Banks, Big Agra - Monsanto, etc. That is all. donheld Jul 2013 #132

Rec from me. n/t susanna Jul 2013 #133

How naive I was ngjtk Jul 2013 #134

I'm honored you added your post to this thread. I saw a documentry on Netflix called "Carrier". It upaloopa Jul 2013 #138

Hello ~ ngjtk In_The_Wind Jul 2013 #144

You fought to keep you and your buddies from dying. Pure and simple. Nanjing to Seoul Jul 2013 #137

Great post brush Jul 2013 #140

Thanks for the honesty. dotymed Jul 2013 #147

I was just thinking, what do you think African Americans in Vietnam and LGBT people in Iraq and upaloopa Jul 2013 #149

I agree with every word you said tavernier Jul 2013 #148

True, but it is not up to Us 4Q2u2 Jul 2013 #154

Thank You for saying it! Stainless Jul 2013 #158