General Discussion

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)

214. Read up on the elements of the law that are needed to be proven in the case.

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:18 PM

Jul 2013

Is it relevant that GZ was legally following TM and called 911? Is it relevant that GZ was legally carrying a gun?

What is relevant is....who started the fight. GZ says it was TM who started the fight.

Who f____ started the fight IS relevant. The jury will decide that. So far, there is no evidence that GZ did. But that doesn't mean the jury has to accept his version. The jurors may decide that it is more likely that GZ struck the first blow, or that responding to a first blow by TM didn't warrant pulling out his gun.

If someone keeps ringing my doorbell, harrassing me, irritating me, "starting" something...that doesn't give me a right to open the door and shoot him dead. Doesn't matter that the doorbell ringer "started" it. That is the law, as I understand it.

If these were two women, this incident probably wouldn't have ended in injury or death. It's the testosterone, I've read. It makes people more aggressive.

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I've never seen so many fucking armchair prosecutors in my life [View all] CatWoman Jul 2013 OP

The utter contempt for law by people here who "know" stuff is sickening cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #1

ah CatWoman Jul 2013 #6

But we don't know what we don't know, so how do we know? :) nt Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #25

stop it!!! CatWoman Jul 2013 #28

It's amazing how often we see what the law "should" be... Pelican Jul 2013 #52

they think they're opinion is the only one that counts, and to contradict them you have their demosincebirth Jul 2013 #90

Hear Hear, Ma'am! The Magistrate Jul 2013 #2

Ah yes, the old "Falsus in uno" warrant46 Jul 2013 #61

I'd bet serious money that the judge does NOT give the jury this particular instruction. kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #67

It Will Certainly Come Up In Closing Argument, Ma'am The Magistrate Jul 2013 #104

Agreed. To the best of my knowledge it is not part of the model Florida criminal jury instructions onenote Jul 2013 #241

That Could Be An Instruction??? RobinA Jul 2013 #226

Common Law Is What It Is, Ma'am The Magistrate Jul 2013 #232

Again, instructing jurors they "should" disregard the entirety of a witness' testimony is outdated onenote Jul 2013 #242

Fair Enough, Sir The Magistrate Jul 2013 #243

I'ma gonna go out on a limb here... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #3

And you would be flat out wrong. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #7

How am I wrong, friend? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #8

Because I very much want Zimmerman convicted, and I support the 2nd Amendment. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #10

You're the exception then, not the rule. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #13

Not true, premium Jul 2013 #30

Good for you. However, you're not on trial, George Zimmerman is. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #43

True, premium Jul 2013 #78

If Zimmerman walks... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #83

yay... race riots for everyone! n/t ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #88

Maybe it's warranted? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #89

because you have been sold on one thinking by the media ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #94

An innocent black teenager is dead. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #98

aside from your preconceptions ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #110

I have facts. You have hopes... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #111

and THAT is the only thing that matters to you ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #115

Facts are important. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #117

yep... and you point to one as the only one that matters ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #118

A fact is a fact. As my hero Pat Moynihan said: Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #128

or to elevate one fact to the dismissal of others ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #131

That fact has not been disputed. The others have been. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #132

and that is the reason for a trial ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #138

Trials are hardly the final arbiter of truth... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #141

but they ARE the arbiter of guilt... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #151

When verdicts are wrong, damn-straight they are. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #153

nope... just wrong ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #157

So... you're against protest in general? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #158

you are supporting fucking rioting ... not the same... n/t ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #163

I'm supporting JUSTICE. Whether meted by a government or otherwise. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #166

Rioting, with the resulting death and destruction, premium Jul 2013 #170

If you knew what "justice" was... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #175

So what's your solution? premium Jul 2013 #179

There should be professional juries. Overseen by those who are schooled in criminal law. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #184

Wow, just wow!!! premium Jul 2013 #190

Yes. They don't understand law. They go by emotion. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #192

That's not my experience with juries premium Jul 2013 #194

Okay then. In what capacity have you testified? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #196

As a Federal Law Enforcement Officer. nt. premium Jul 2013 #201

Gotcha. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #204

For the record, premium Jul 2013 #211

Then we have reached common ground. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #212

Which is always a good thing. premium Jul 2013 #217

if anyone "went by emotion" Skittles Jul 2013 #236

And you have now admitted to opposing the 6th Amendment. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #199

The 6th amendment went on the assumption that juries could be "non-biased" Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #202

Ah, because small villages and towns in the 18th Century were FAR better. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #205

...or with Twitter, Facebook, et. al. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #207

In other words you support vigilantism? Ironic considering what Zimmerman is accused of. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #195

I'm in favor of justice in the face of facts. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #198

And yet the court system and a Jury are the arbiters of fact. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #203

I'm advocating for justice when justice is not served. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #206

nope... you're in favor of riots when you disagree with a lawfully obtained verdict ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #250

I am who? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #252

Peaceful protest? No, premium Jul 2013 #167

The Chinese thought that the man in front of the tank was a "riot". Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #169

What does the Chinese have to do with this? premium Jul 2013 #174

You seem to have an issue with my explanation of "protest" Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #177

No, my problem is that you seem to indicate premium Jul 2013 #181

The wrong verdict would be acquittal. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #185

Acquittal would not be the wrong verdict premium Jul 2013 #193

you're in favor of riots if the justice served is not YOUR idea of justice ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #251

Did you just wake up from a nap? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #254

no... i went to a movie with my family ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #258

Yes. Yes I did. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #262

given this... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #265

You're easy to laugh at, junkmail... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #267

oh no... i am not attacking you ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #269

No, just another PA from a weak-minded 2nd Amendment supporter. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #274

Protest is wrong! Follow the glorious leaders! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #164

ah now standing up to the gov't in a protest is the same as rioting... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #165

No, just your interpretation of justice. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #168

Another hero, uncelebrated, was the driver and tank commander of the lead tank. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #215

I'm sure he wasn't promoted... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #216

Lucky if he avoided a work camp. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #220

Really? premium Jul 2013 #162

Thanks for posting this premium. amandabeech Jul 2013 #233

My pleasure. nt. premium Jul 2013 #235

ALL the facts are important... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #260

Prejudice? The dead man was unarmed. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #280

go look up prejudice and then see where yours lies n/t ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #282

Apparently, you need to do the same. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #285

keyboard won't reach. NM_Birder Jul 2013 #257

You would have no problem with the death and destruction that might premium Jul 2013 #97

We're talking FACTS here... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #109

you conveniently leave out all the detail ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #112

So, you're ok with the death and destruction that might follow premium Jul 2013 #119

Anger would be justified, but violence against innocent people would not. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #126

Hold on wercal Jul 2013 #221

"Trayvon Martin was walking home from a convenience store carrying candy and iced tea." Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #223

You don't know? wercal Jul 2013 #225

I've called for justice if justice is NOT served. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #227

Understood wercal Jul 2013 #229

you still using the word 'protester' ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #248

Name calling? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #249

nope ... just facts ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #256

How was your nap? Did you dream of armed Zimmermans? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #259

no... i had a fun afternoon with my family ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #261

Yes. Yes I did. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #263

TMI. nt NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #277

How many Reginald Dennys.... FormalObserver Jul 2013 #147

Welcome to DU! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #149

Thank you FormalObserver Jul 2013 #155

I will support any community activity that serves as a backlash to the failure of the justice system Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #156

58 people died as a direct result of the LA Riots and that was OK with you? ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #161

If the courts did their job correctly... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #186

so, you're still ok with innocent people dying... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #253

Wakey wakey, junkmail... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #255

to bad you missed the movie... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #264

After that family-fun-filled movie... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #266

no... disappointed to find you ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #268

If Zim skates, the LAW-ABIDING community will have EVERY reason to RIOT! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #271

i own no firearms... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #273

Your "assumptions" remind me of a great scene from "The Odd Couple" Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #278

ok... i have no more time to play on the intertubes with hypocrites ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #281

Well at least you're not backing off of this anymore wercal Jul 2013 #279

Is Trayvon's corpse NOT enough for you??? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #283

Oh no...no...no wercal Jul 2013 #294

I called you a name? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #295

Including those that may cause death and destruction? Duckwraps Jul 2013 #228

he... that's pretty good n/t ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #270

LA Riots killed 53 people wercal Jul 2013 #230

That won't happen. ellisonz Jul 2013 #171

...and that might be the modern Boston Massacre. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #180

...and zombie Paul Revere might rise from the dead ellisonz Jul 2013 #187

Wow... you don't know Mr Revere, do you... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #191

Hey as long as we're dealing with hypotheticals... ellisonz Jul 2013 #197

It should be. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #200

Were there riots immediately following the acquittal of 6 of the 8 soldiers that fired on civilians onenote Jul 2013 #244

Actually, that could make it worse. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #189

This is America. ellisonz Jul 2013 #210

Understood. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #213

A modern race riot would be very different from 21 years ago. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #219

Even if WovenGems Jul 2013 #121

They could, premium Jul 2013 #123

Nope WovenGems Jul 2013 #125

Wrong, premium Jul 2013 #127

Yes And No, Ma'am The Magistrate Jul 2013 #218

Not true Duckwraps Jul 2013 #129

Why is it the anti gun people are the only ones equating firearms with sex? Lurks Often Jul 2013 #18

If you own and covet a gun... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #21

Along with about 100 million other Americans n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #24

Yep. That's why the 2nd Amendment is under review... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #40

Yes and most of the court cases are clear wins for the gun owners n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #62

Blaming gun owners for Holmes and Lanza is like blaming Protestors (using the 1st) for Fred Phelps. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #66

You, as a gun owner, should be RAILING against the NRA and others for fucking up the 2nd Amendment Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #81

So you don't understand why people defend a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT? NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #101

You have the right to carry a confederate flag or wear a swastika, but Hoyt Jul 2013 #154

Ah, Mr. Hoyt, the arbiter of the Norm. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #160

So you approve of confederate flags, etc. Rights don't have to be exercised. Hoyt Jul 2013 #172

I will refer back to the quote usually attributed to Fran�ois-Marie Arouet NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #183

Meh, premium Jul 2013 #272

the 2nd is under review?cool backwoodsbob Jul 2013 #77

Certainly not by the government - which should be happening... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #106

The 2nd Amendment is under review? premium Jul 2013 #102

The last 7 months, since Sandy Hook... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #108

You supply a link to the google search engine as evidence" premium Jul 2013 #114

The 4th is apparently under review too...unbeknownst to we the people. dkf Jul 2013 #130

No Kidding! NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #133

The 4th and the 1st haven't lead to mass killings. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #134

Well there are citizens who have been targeted with drones. dkf Jul 2013 #136

The 1st has led to many mass killings. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #137

Maybe only out loud. eom uppityperson Jul 2013 #68

I haven't seen anyone hoping for an acquittal. There have been a lot of posters expressing his guilt Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #42

An unarmed person walking home from a convenience store... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #47

+1 000 000 000 kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #70

Look at the evidence. Key point: Did TM attack GZ? If so, not a slam dunk. Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #82

Who fucking started it??? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #87

"Who f____ing started it" is not an element of 2nd degree murder in Florida. Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #92

Who FUCKING started it? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #95

Read up on the elements of the law that are needed to be proven in the case. Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #214

+1. They suppport Zimmy for several reasons, including they acquired their weapons and permits Hoyt Jul 2013 #79

That's a racist thing to say. nt Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #86

How so? yardwork Jul 2013 #99

You only state that because of GZ's race...you state that based on some preconceived idea you Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #116

The subject is Zimmerman supporters. yardwork Jul 2013 #124

Do you honestly think Martin would have grabbed his gun and taken off after a skinny white kid? Hoyt Jul 2013 #135

So it's okay to call a white a derogatory term under certain circumstances, but not okay Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #159

How Do Us White Folks Manage To Bear Up, Ma'am, Under All This Oppression? The Magistrate Jul 2013 #224

of course it is the gun humpers Skittles Jul 2013 #122

And yet the sub-thread above contradicts that premise. nt NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #140

but by your own description, you are not a gun humper Skittles Jul 2013 #144

Given the extreme levels of hate, what is the difference? NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #146

those whose fear and ignorance trumps all Skittles Jul 2013 #150

Unfortunately, it appears that many posters are a bit more broad in scope NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #176

I suspect those folk have never been around guns Skittles Jul 2013 #245

Interpretation is the debate. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #247

DU is infested with "experts" on every topic you could imagine... TreasonousBastard Jul 2013 #4

And you know all posters' experience, education, and knowledge, how? WinkyDink Jul 2013 #48

I agree. I cannot watch the trial, Laurian Jul 2013 #5

Amazing how certain people are willing to be about their opinions treestar Jul 2013 #9

lets make a bet treestar backwoodsbob Jul 2013 #38

I do not deserve that treestar Jul 2013 #72

lets just be happy they are not all on the federal payroll or our taxes would go up dembotoz Jul 2013 #11

Har-de-har-HAR. Taxes might go up! Gee, what Party usually screams about taxes? WinkyDink Jul 2013 #50

Welcome to the internet AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #12

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #14

whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!! CatWoman Jul 2013 #17

LOL, I just agreed with you. That bothers you? Alert it. Let the jury decide. Logical Jul 2013 #27

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #32

Ahh...more whining about the DU. And you hurt my feelings calling me a POS. I am sad now! n-t Logical Jul 2013 #37

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #73

Aaaaand the jury has decided... Sheldon Cooper Jul 2013 #57

The jury decided. You lose. demwing Jul 2013 #58

You didn't have to. I did... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #51

Odd, that you desire a jury of your peers to judge somebody speech. NM_Birder Jul 2013 #284

Hi! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #286

Thanks ! NM_Birder Jul 2013 #287

Cat Woman didn't shoot anyone, nor did the responent to her OP. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #289

Not sure "I" know what you mean there, the jury comments were yours. NM_Birder Jul 2013 #292

My concern is that justice is served. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #293

You won...Logical's poison missive was hidden. DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #53

"Logical" Skittles Jul 2013 #143

it is NOT discussing... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #20

LOL, where did I say there should not be a trial. And I said I bet he gets off. You know.... Logical Jul 2013 #29

not you... YOU ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #36

If the jury finds "not guilty," he won't be "getting off." He'll be declared not guilty.... Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #56

The lesser charge of Manslaughter is included in all FL 2nd Degree Murder charges by default /nt demwing Jul 2013 #74

Ah. I see. If I had to guess NOW, that'd be my guess of the way the evidence is shaping up. Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #96

oh, damn, looks like someone got your rudeness hidden ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #63

You could also just stop being rude and calling people "stupid" demwing Jul 2013 #65

Awww, so sad. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #54

thank you for your contribution ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #60

I can't believe how many grown-ups are griping about posting styles re: this trial. But hey: WinkyDink Jul 2013 #80

i judged you on the content of your contribution ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #85

yep... everyone KNOWS that their 'slam dunk' ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #15

I've been passing over all of those threads. MineralMan Jul 2013 #16

Whatever. But there is NOTHING SUPERIOR about that approach. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #39

Did I say there was? I just don't follow MineralMan Jul 2013 #45

In the context of an affirmative reply to the OP, it is implied. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #59

Not really. You inferred it. I didn't imply it. MineralMan Jul 2013 #69

I didn't pipi_k Jul 2013 #100

Not nearly as many as there are armchair presidents (nt) The Straight Story Jul 2013 #19

... Phentex Jul 2013 #22

that's the second time someone has made me spit water all over my monitor CatWoman Jul 2013 #23

good one Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #26

+1 tallahasseedem Jul 2013 #276

So it's your position that one must not discuss any trial as it is occurring? WinkyDink Jul 2013 #31

I never said that CatWoman Jul 2013 #34

Then exactly what DOES your pejorative term mean? WinkyDink Jul 2013 #41

I said I've never seen so many armchair prosecutors CatWoman Jul 2013 #49

Well, there is a leetle descriptive term you've nicely omitted. So: WinkyDink Jul 2013 #76

one must not discuss any subject unless they hold at least a masters in it Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #35

Asst. Prosecuting Atty., criminal appellate division, Ohio 2003-2011. nt Deep13 Jul 2013 #33

Ah who are you kidding! Just Saying Jul 2013 #44

I am enjoying the discussion CatWoman Jul 2013 #55

Lol Just Saying Jul 2013 #71

LOL malaise Jul 2013 #46

Defense lawyers too... LanternWaste Jul 2013 #64

This ^^^ Just Saying Jul 2013 #93

It's like pipi_k Jul 2013 #75

Where is there a post calling the cops and defense attorneys racist? WinkyDink Jul 2013 #84

I've seen a couple. pipi_k Jul 2013 #113

Sadly I must state Duckwraps Jul 2013 #91

Your Posts Say A LOT About You HangOnKids Jul 2013 #148

Naaa. Duckwraps Jul 2013 #173

Stuff Your Beer Cheer HangOnKids Jul 2013 #178

What? I don't understand what you mean, please explain. Duckwraps Jul 2013 #222

Which ones? Pab Sungenis Jul 2013 #103

I think that that Duckwraps Jul 2013 #145

Kind of figured. Pab Sungenis Jul 2013 #239

Yes I am new here and the outrage on the part of some has really amazed me. Duckwraps Jul 2013 #240

OMFG!!!!! premium Jul 2013 #105

I actually like the guy. avebury Jul 2013 #209

I've avoided them, elleng Jul 2013 #107

you want I should kick some armchair prosecutor ass, girl??? Skittles Jul 2013 #120

Your Honor Duer 157099 Jul 2013 #139

Or armchair quarterbacks, politicians, scientists, critics or anything else. Orsino Jul 2013 #142

ROFL alcibiades_mystery Jul 2013 #152

Oh, there you go, now you got SKittles all riled up!!!!!!!!!! Marrah_G Jul 2013 #182

. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #188

you want I should kick your blessing humanist ass, Cooley Hurd? Skittles Jul 2013 #237

They are rooting for Zimmerman to get off free of charge. Rex Jul 2013 #208

They're not all racists Just Saying Jul 2013 #291

2 things we know regardless of the outcome of the trial. DrewFlorida Jul 2013 #231

It does seem to be the same people thread by thread. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #234

TV creates them by focusing on emotional things like trials Corruption Inc Jul 2013 #238

Yeah, imagine people on a discussion board having opinions!! Myrina Jul 2013 #246

It's obvious Zimmerman murdered TM and lied about it. Apophis Jul 2013 #275

I am against the death penalty. In all circumstances. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #288

Touch�. Apophis Jul 2013 #296

Gets the chair? premium Jul 2013 #290