General Discussion

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)

65. You made an easily demolished specious argument.

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:55 PM

Jul 2013

You tried to suggest that the smear tactics against Snowden must be accompanied by an affirmative denial that there is any significance to complaints about NSA spying.

But no one thinks that. Because that's not how smear tactics work. The smears are an attempt to hijack the topic and undermine the message *without* addressing it. That's how bad-faith, cowardly argument works.

No one needs to say, "Snowden's a dirty, pole-dancer dating, garage-box-having traitor, THEREFORE, NSA spying doesn't matter. It's implied that the message isn't credible because the messenger is unreliable.

And it would sound really stupid if they acknowledged it.

It would be relevant to show people smearing Snowden and acknowledging the overall issue, but that's not really happening.

But you can't, apparently.

I do see a few of those people now backing off a bit, but holding tight to the idea that it's far more important that Snowden broke the rules and embarrassed the administration.

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What the hell, DU? [View all] NuclearDem Jul 2013 OP

Thaaaaank you very much. sibelian Jul 2013 #1

I guess there's just no hope with reaching some people. NuclearDem Jul 2013 #3

I doubt any of them WOULD openly call themselves liberals. sibelian Jul 2013 #25

One of them even bragged to me in a post about being A Simple Game Jul 2013 #88

We're justy s-o-o-o inflexible that way. sulphurdunn Jul 2013 #163

there are some bots you just can't reach.... think Jul 2013 #29

Part of the problem is that the word "liberal" is often used interchangeably with merrily Jul 2013 #74

Be carefrul of how you express yourself Plucketeer Jul 2013 #200

No fucking way hootinholler Jul 2013 #259

Yep: Some think it repression when 'the other' does it, 'defending freedom' when one does it. panzerfaust Jul 2013 #84

What hapened? Congnitive dissonance. Are we pro-Obama or Pro-Civil Liberties BlueStreak Jul 2013 #157

Couldn't agreed more. AmBlue Jul 2013 #188

Yeah, things ain't what they use to be here. southerncrone Jul 2013 #2

I don't see it. Crow73 Jul 2013 #118

Not mad. southerncrone Jul 2013 #202

Thank you so much newfie11 Jul 2013 #4

Its changed a lot warrant46 Jul 2013 #30

if you criticize the government the terrorist have already won Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #5

And the right wing, too! AND the libertarians. sibelian Jul 2013 #6

Also, Mitt Romney is going to win. Somehow. NuclearDem Jul 2013 #9

Where's the sarcasm tag. You just forced me to exercise idependant thought... TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #11

Who wins if the government..... DeSwiss Jul 2013 #16

Wow....that is some black or white thinking right there.... dixiegrrrrl Jul 2013 #41

OMG LMFAO L0oniX Jul 2013 #176

The McCarthyism is what really gets me. Jim Lane Jul 2013 #7

Got a link to a DUer saying illegal surveillance isn't problematic? SunSeeker Jul 2013 #15

Neither are they saying it's more important than the issue of Mr. Snowden. :-/ n/t DeSwiss Jul 2013 #17

There have been plenty but not going to bother pointing them out to you rhett o rick Jul 2013 #90

They're special alright. DeSwiss Jul 2013 #161

There's been plenty. Try this: muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #21

He was the first person i thought of when I saw LuvNewcastle Jul 2013 #23

It was a whole different world of surveillance under the dick and w madokie Jul 2013 #31

I agree. Sad that the OP comes out of "lurking" just to smear fellow DUers. nt SunSeeker Jul 2013 #58

it's far kinder and gentler under obama.. frylock Jul 2013 #86

"kinder and gentler under obama" ? NM_Birder Jul 2013 #147

I suspect poster is being a little dry. nt sibelian Jul 2013 #220

So you claim that James Clapper changed the surveillance programs when Obama became president? rhett o rick Jul 2013 #169

That post says no such thing. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #53

There is no difference in wiretapping w/o a warrant and wiretapping with a FISA kangaroo warrant. nm rhett o rick Jul 2013 #167

You're changing the subject. I asked the poster for a link to back up his assertions. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #194

Right. Got "a link" to someone smearing Snowden AND acknowledging his point? DirkGently Jul 2013 #49

I see. You have nothing. nt SunSeeker Jul 2013 #56

Well, I kind of put the lie to your post, there. DirkGently Jul 2013 #57

What lie? You did not dispute it at all. nt SunSeeker Jul 2013 #59

You made an easily demolished specious argument. DirkGently Jul 2013 #65

Not true. I asked for a link to back up the poster's assertion. Which no one has done. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #68

Gibberish. No one said you smeared DUers. DirkGently Jul 2013 #72

Since when is asking for a link to back up an assertion "specious"? SunSeeker Jul 2013 #87

Try doing a search on 'your phone records don't belong to you'. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #235

I see you have nothing either. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #237

+1000 LuvNewcastle Jul 2013 #70

Thanks, Dirk, I'll adopt your answer to the question SunSeeker posed to me. Jim Lane Jul 2013 #69

It is not an "answer." I asked for a link that says what you claim DUers are saying. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #239

It IS an answer if you take the trouble to read what I actually wrote. Jim Lane Jul 2013 #244

I did read your response. There was no link to back up your smear of DUers. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #246

You complain about DUers attacking DUers -- which is what you're doing. Jim Lane Jul 2013 #250

LOL. So pointing out that you're attacking DUers is "attacking" you?! SunSeeker Jul 2013 #252

Nicely Done, Dirk. bvar22 Jul 2013 #122

Here you go. Union Scribe Jul 2013 #255

That poster does not say he supports illegal surveillance. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #256

The McCarthyism on display is why I have so many hidden posts. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #135

There's a very simple test you can use: 7962 Jul 2013 #8

Exactly. n/t mattclearing Jul 2013 #12

Exactly! Maat Jul 2013 #26

It is PRECISELY that easy. As a Catholic and a Democrat, I support principles, not fallible men. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #37

Yup. nt Nay Jul 2013 #120

Yep. +1 GoneFishin Jul 2013 #130

Very shallow response. IMO Vietnameravet Jul 2013 #150

What DID they say when bu$h was president, should be the question. SammyWinstonJack Jul 2013 #228

Spot On! micraphone Jul 2013 #10

You and I are on the same page it seems... silvershadow Jul 2013 #13

K&R. Thanks. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #14

It's disgusting whatchamacallit Jul 2013 #18

I just don't read posts by certain people. LuvNewcastle Jul 2013 #19

You still have a few good soldiers (nt) MichaelMcGuire Jul 2013 #20

Well said. My feelings exactly. nt DLevine Jul 2013 #22

Thank You - Well Said cantbeserious Jul 2013 #24

Shocking how some will justify ANYTHING because of the 'D'. eom SaveOurDemocracy Jul 2013 #27

it's not the 'D' - it's the 'O' Skittles Jul 2013 #108

Actually, I think it's a K... backscatter712 Jul 2013 #110

I know there are plenty of trolls Skittles Jul 2013 #112

I'm sure there's money in it marions ghost Jul 2013 #184

That too: SaveOurDemocracy Jul 2013 #149

Skinner won't police his site. That's the problem. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #28

How is the jury system gamed? Honest question. Demit Jul 2013 #35

Maybe not gamed, but it is ineffective... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #92

My bet is that the 50-centers or trolls have dummy accounts set up just to do jury-duties. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #98

You're talking about the Paulbots. baldguy Jul 2013 #171

no doubt... nebenaube Jul 2013 #158

Indeed. If 4 people just don't like you your post gets hidden. Doesn't matter if rules were broken. L0oniX Jul 2013 #179

Yep... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #210

It's not. Posteritatis Jul 2013 #151

There is a fungus among us, that's for sure. nt silvershadow Jul 2013 #102

a black mold - poisoning discussion here! n/t backscatter712 Jul 2013 #109

How do you know whether someone is a paid shill or not? Jamaal510 Jul 2013 #178

Yes, and it will continue to get worse woo me with science Jul 2013 #204

PLUS A BRAZILLION! Enthusiast Jul 2013 #207

+1,000,000 nt LWolf Jul 2013 #245

If anyone ever wonders why I love you so much, this post is why n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #267

Exactly. The definition is called "Manufacturing Consent".. 2banon Dec 2013 #268

In fairness to the admins, the paid shills are very good at not crossing the line. Zorra Jul 2013 #232

One is only as liberal as their most conservative investment. raouldukelives Jul 2013 #32

what a damn great op. spot on. stick around, would you? cali Jul 2013 #33

What happened to DU? Follow the money, honey! Divernan Jul 2013 #34

Exactly! AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #54

The long and short of it PATRICK Jul 2013 #36

fanboi's KG Jul 2013 #38

If you're a left-leaning, 4th Amendment loving, anti-corporate, anti-establishment libertarian baldguy Jul 2013 #39

speak of the devil usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #44

Bwahaha! And that guy doesn't even realize truedelphi Jul 2013 #142

LMAO L0oniX Jul 2013 #181

Pffft! Enthusiast Jul 2013 #208

that's ironic grasswire Jul 2013 #52

Irony has a built in blindness. L0oniX Jul 2013 #182

DU is infected with trolls. ananda Jul 2013 #40

This message was self-deleted by its author Violet_Crumble Jul 2013 #42

K&R!! felix_numinous Jul 2013 #43

Obama is the one calling for power to be scaled back. Vote a different Congress in 2014 JaneyVee Jul 2013 #45

If Obama wants to scale back on power Maedhros Jul 2013 #82

Posters like her should be called "Catapulters" rusty fender Jul 2013 #111

I know. They definitely receive the same scripts. Maedhros Jul 2013 #124

I don't care what he "calls for", as per his camaign rhetoric. Divernan Jul 2013 #91

What he "says" and What he "DOES"........ bvar22 Jul 2013 #104

Heckuva job, Clapper. Nanjing to Seoul Jul 2013 #117

LOL.... EXACTLY!!!! bvar22 Jul 2013 #123

Then his rogue justice dept. needs to be leashed, they are going for a cover-up Dragonfli Jul 2013 #105

Aw, geeze. SammyWinstonJack Jul 2013 #229

Welcome back usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #46

knr forestpath Jul 2013 #47

Its the BAB, bub! Stinky The Clown Jul 2013 #48

+ 1000 MissDeeds Jul 2013 #146

Why do pro corporatism and Obama lurve go hand in hand? Oh wait... BrotherIvan Jul 2013 #50

Wellstone: Stand up. Keep fighting. grasswire Jul 2013 #51

Hear, hear. AmBlue Jul 2013 #55

yep marions ghost Jul 2013 #185

Welcome back Savannahmann Jul 2013 #60

We're being trained to be obedient. Gregorian Jul 2013 #61

agreed n/t RainDog Jul 2013 #62

Welcome back.. nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #63

nadinbrzezinski nineteen50 Jul 2013 #173

When do we get to have our own church? L0oniX Jul 2013 #183

You want to try herding this group of cats nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #186

I don't believe they're trolls or paid shills Ratty Jul 2013 #64

+1. n/t NRaleighLiberal Jul 2013 #95

Having to look--really look--at the implications marions ghost Jul 2013 #116

HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #66

No ProSense Jul 2013 #67

Self parody is the Best parody, so thanks for your entry! Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #77

I don't take you seriously. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #81

You can't say "supercillious" without "super silly". Kurovski Jul 2013 #162

Prosense: "Spying on Americans was, is and will still be illegal." woo me with science Jul 2013 #97

Ouch. The mark THAT leaves is indelible. bvar22 Jul 2013 #119

I guess that's why woo me with science Jul 2013 #121

She has backed herself into a corner where she has to deny that any massive domestic surveillance Warren Stupidity Jul 2013 #127

You've been duped. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #199

Well I agree you could have been lying. Warren Stupidity Jul 2013 #226

I guess being disingenuous is cool. ProSense Jul 2013 #231

"duped"..."disingenuous" bvar22 Jul 2013 #240

Love it! Pro Sense outed as opposed to Obama's spying on citizens! Divernan Jul 2013 #137

Can't quit ProSense Jul 2013 #198

So then you DISAGREE with the current surveillance of Americans? That's good to know sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #241

Nice find! a2liberal Jul 2013 #203

PLUS ONE! nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #211

... Enthusiast Jul 2013 #212

opps. SammyWinstonJack Jul 2013 #230

The Straw Man is Snowden LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #125

Right!Despite"Years of challenges to NSA"it keeps growing like a malignant cancer Divernan Jul 2013 #141

Mahalo ProSense for your post replying so well to this disingenuous, Cha Jul 2013 #189

Amazing, isn't it? n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #201

Irony up the wazoo in this post. nt Mojorabbit Jan 2014 #269

Meta treestar Jul 2013 #71

Let me guess. When you last followed DU closely, Bush was in office. merrily Jul 2013 #73

K & f'ing R N_E_1 for Tennis Jul 2013 #75

K&R MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #76

Agreed. nt Zorra Jul 2013 #78

Well said! BlueJac Jul 2013 #79

Hear Hear snagglepuss Jul 2013 #80

Liberals still are in favor of rights Doctor_J Jul 2013 #83

"...the surrender to the powerful simply because they have a (D)... RevStPatrick Jul 2013 #85

This is the voice of the DU I joined in 2005 Not Sure Jul 2013 #89

Hear, hear. n/t Alkene Jul 2013 #144

Personally I think we need a new progressive DU. go west young man Jul 2013 #93

Perfectly stated - thanks for putting down what I've been feeling for weeks. K and R. NRaleighLiberal Jul 2013 #94

you have to use the ignore feature.. xiamiam Jul 2013 #96

Patience, He'll Be Gone otohara Jul 2013 #99

What's happened to DU? woo me with science Jul 2013 #100

Beautifully put, woo me with science: Z_I_Peevey Jul 2013 #153

Recovering Republicans Warpy Jul 2013 #101

+1000000 a2liberal Jul 2013 #103

Thank you. I fully agree. richmwill Jul 2013 #106

THANK YOU Skittles Jul 2013 #107

I responded to this post earlier this morning zeeland Jul 2013 #113

Poster "Violet Crumble" posted that the thread was locked. Divernan Jul 2013 #132

What a shitty thing to do. zeeland Jul 2013 #139

It was exactly what Scarletwoman said... Violet_Crumble Jul 2013 #197

No problem. It's just the way the timing worked out. zeeland Jul 2013 #215

She is a host of GD. What probably happened was that some hosts had voted to lock this, scarletwoman Jul 2013 #174

What kind of bullshit is this. You want group think, then du isn't for you still_one Jul 2013 #114

it's not group think Skittles Jul 2013 #138

A big ol K + R! BobbyBoring Jul 2013 #115

Proud DURec! bvar22 Jul 2013 #126

Checks & Balances are what They've deleted .... orpupilofnature57 Jul 2013 #128

most who joined them were paid to do so and are only here for the check yurbud Jul 2013 #129

I also suspect multiple avatars for some individuals, since you mentioned GoneFishin Jul 2013 #131

When the Snowden story broke, they came out with entire sock drawers! n/t backscatter712 Jul 2013 #134

the easy way to tell their real numbers or close to it is post a poll yurbud Jul 2013 #136

There is a system in place, though. Expect the numbers to rise. woo me with science Jul 2013 #159

The ability to tell nineteen50 Jul 2013 #133

Well put-together OP. Kurovski Jul 2013 #140

K & R ctsnowman Jul 2013 #143

Hitler had his followers, too. blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #145

Huge K&R MissDeeds Jul 2013 #148

They're republicans playing a democrat on a message board Corruption Inc Jul 2013 #152

Gives me a better understanding of how we got here Herlong Jul 2013 #154

What a great post. NorthCarolina Jul 2013 #155

You might be on to something. Actually, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. indepat Jul 2013 #156

Hear, hear,. very well said. Nothing can be good without criticism. Civilization2 Jul 2013 #160

Trolls, right wingers sulphurdunn Jul 2013 #164

You're kidding, Right? farmbo Jul 2013 #165

He's not kidding, even though no one can back up his assertions about DUers with any links. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #253

the worst part of it all is, THEY FEEL THE SAME MisterP Jul 2013 #166

I'm Also One Who Left Here & Just Recently ChiciB1 Jul 2013 #168

kr Norrin Radd Jul 2013 #170

I have coined a new term for some of my "Democratic" friends. airplaneman Jul 2013 #172

If Snowden was an unabashed liberal -- and a Republican was in the White House - would you support Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #180

I think I would reserve judgment based on what this guy actually did bring to light. airplaneman Jul 2013 #214

My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying... L0oniX Jul 2013 #175

Welcome back. LWolf Jul 2013 #177

Just wanted to point out that Glenn Greenwald is *NOT* a libertarian... pacalo Jul 2013 #187

Thanks Pacalo, Greenwald has always supported SS and other Liberal policies. For a sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #216

This message was self-deleted by its author pacalo Jul 2013 #217

I pointed that out because I've seen that labeling a number of times & it's factually wrong. pacalo Jul 2013 #218

Welcome back, we need you. Curmudgeoness Jul 2013 #190

Very well done. gateley Jul 2013 #191

Sorry a bit of common sense and pragmatism doesnt fit your version of a progressive/liberal. DCBob Jul 2013 #192

"Common sense" and "pragmatism" sibelian Jul 2013 #221

My point is many of you are completey out of touch with reality. DCBob Jul 2013 #222

Another meaningless aphorism. sibelian Jul 2013 #223

I guess for some "reality" is an elusive concept. DCBob Jul 2013 #225

So it would appear. sibelian Jul 2013 #227

Is that you, Chuckles? LWolf Jul 2013 #248

Excellent. woo me with science Jul 2013 #263

You can still be a progressive brush Jul 2013 #193

Absolutely! Lonr Jul 2013 #195

I proudly give you your 300th rec AAO Jul 2013 #196

Kick. (nt) Kurovski Jul 2013 #205

This message was self-deleted by its author ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #206

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jul 2013 #209

There is no longer a represented left wing in this country Vanje Jul 2013 #213

Some excellent points in your reply pecwae Jul 2013 #219

Maybe that's the goal? n/t sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #233

If that's so pecwae Jul 2013 #234

Well, there's no logic to defending Bush policies on a Democratic forum other sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #236

same goal as Sen. Cranston had in '78 and the DLC had in '88: to move the party MisterP Jul 2013 #238

How hopeless pecwae Jul 2013 #243

not really: it just needs organization and willingness to *fight* for goals and principles MisterP Jul 2013 #247

I hate to gum up this pecwae Jul 2013 #258

alas, this is all stuff I've learned over the decade--maybe I'll make a nice, magisterial OP 1 day MisterP Jul 2013 #264

Yes. nt LWolf Jul 2013 #249

Oh yeah! SammyWinstonJack Jul 2013 #224

Another thing you might be noticing nolabels Jul 2013 #242

Props! JackRiddler Jul 2013 #251

here!! here!! Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #254

341 recs. You are not alone. There are a lot of us who feel this way. liberal_at_heart Jul 2013 #257

k & r whttevrr Jul 2013 #260

Your memory is selective. Orsino Jul 2013 #261

kick Zorra Jul 2013 #262

DURec leftstreet Jul 2013 #265

Rec'd before but now it's time for a kick n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #266

K&R for the very sad, hard truth. nt DLevine Jan 2014 #270