General Discussion

randome

(34,845 posts)

165. I think they said initially that vetting was occurring.

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:56 PM

Jul 2013

But then Snowden started giving away info to China and threatened more. I think that's when Greenwald basically abandoned him, although who knows what Greenwald may be cooking up.

I think the PowerPoint slides are, at best, ambiguous since they can be interpreted in different ways and, in at least one case, directly refutes Snowden's claims.

But if Snowden really had the access he claimed, why would he not have stolen less ambiguous documents? Why not steal something that would blow the roof off instead of making vague assertions that depend, more than anything else, on our taking his word for it?

The obvious answer to me is he lied. His resume is a lie. I think he's lying about having detailed agent info, too, but that remains to be seen. He said "I am not here to hide from justice" so that's another point against his credibility.

He said he "saw things" but he won't ever say what he saw.

He simply does not come across as believable, IMO.

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How can Snowden be a traitor if the NSA program is a figment of his imagination? [View all] Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 OP

Because he also gave intelligence secrets to China by having them published. randome Jul 2013 #1

Oh please. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #4

He broke his oath. Is that good enough? randome Jul 2013 #5

What else do you have? Scootaloo Jul 2013 #7

Obviously since that shoe-horns nicely with choosing to believe what Snowden says. randome Jul 2013 #9

So if he made it up, then nothing at all was violated. Scootaloo Jul 2013 #20

I guess you can take my word that I don't hate Snowden or you. randome Jul 2013 #24

I don't care if you do or don't Scootaloo Jul 2013 #33

All of his claims about NSA spying have no evidence to back them up. randome Jul 2013 #35

lolz,. the light is both on AND off,. hilarious. Civilization2 Jul 2013 #113

They have the power now to ruin anyone who causes trouble siligut Jul 2013 #186

If Snowden fabricated tales about a non-existent program then he broke no oath. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #13

Not everything about this is simple. randome Jul 2013 #17

But they're just PowerPoint slides which are no proof of anything. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #19

And it was probably unnecessary to label them 'Top Secret', too. randome Jul 2013 #22

So, suddenly, there's proof even though you've been saying there's no proof. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #25

No proof of his outrageous claims. But solid intelligence info given to the Chinese. randome Jul 2013 #31

So everything that supports your claim is true but anything else is not. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #39

It's difficult to be 100% objective on anything. randome Jul 2013 #45

Yeah, and it also means Snowden may have been justified in breaking his oath freedom fighter jh Jul 2013 #28

Then He Should Gladly Come Back To The U.S.... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #77

An open forum like Bradley Manning's? freedom fighter jh Jul 2013 #84

He's Not Mannng... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #92

How is running to a third world country *supposed* to protect the Constitution? freedom fighter jh Jul 2013 #97

Stay On Snowden... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #101

NSA is violating the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution all day every day. freedom fighter jh Jul 2013 #146

I Don't Care Either... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #150

Agreed. The conversation needs to happen and it will. randome Jul 2013 #151

You forgot something: "I am not here to hide from justice." randome Jul 2013 #98

I Guess Hiding Makes It More True... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #128

You conveniently forget (or choose to ignore) Jose Padilla, also an HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #126

Because... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #134

Padilla and Snowden are both American citizens. Padilla was denied due process and tortured HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #141

You're right, Padilla was treated terribly. By Bush. randome Jul 2013 #144

On the contrary, it has everything to do with why Snowden should HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #147

Well, Snowden didn't really 'contribute' anything. randome Jul 2013 #148

Right, Snowden didn't contribute anything, other than to supply proof HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #152

You don't hear much about that from Congress, though. randome Jul 2013 #156

There's the Congress you have and the Congress you'd like to have. (Now why am I HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #160

But you're right about that. freedom fighter jh Jul 2013 #169

And the Supreme Court made a ruling on that case treestar Jul 2013 #176

And get the treatment Bradley Manning got, right? Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #85

Military Vs. Civilian... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #89

Yes, I am sure that will make such a difference. Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #99

What happened to Manning was ruled 'excessive' by the judge in the case. randome Jul 2013 #100

Again, your wearing rose colored glasses, if you believe he would be Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #103

It's a simple case of espionage. Others are prosecuted for similar charges. randome Jul 2013 #106

No. It's not espionage. Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #108

Fine. Then he has nothing to worry about and should come home. randome Jul 2013 #110

Circular logic. Right, come home so he can get tortured. Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #119

Obviously he faces charges. Maybe it's not espionage according to your definition. randome Jul 2013 #120

The Altemeyer Authoritarian Test Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #124

It still comes down to basic facts. randome Jul 2013 #127

Make up your mind Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #138

He didn't 'claim' anything about our international hacking processes. randome Jul 2013 #142

Banana Republics always generate trumped up charges against enemies of the state Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #125

Some 'enemy'. If this is what 'enemies of the state' have devolved into... randome Jul 2013 #129

I like how you insert "hero" into someone who is simply a whistle blower Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #135

This ^^^^ treestar Jul 2013 #178

Would you side with the Mafia against a "squealer", "rat", "stool pigeon", etc? Towlie Jul 2013 #43

Because he 'revealed' metadata storage? randome Jul 2013 #44

do employees of outside contractors even take an "oath"? SwampG8r Jul 2013 #91

That's a good point. I'm sure they do but I don't know precisely. randome Jul 2013 #94

i would be SwampG8r Jul 2013 #107

Even if they don't . . . freedom fighter jh Jul 2013 #170

he was not a federal worker SwampG8r Jul 2013 #193

You mean like the oaths those in government constantly break -- to us? villager Jul 2013 #177

Show evidence that they are not defending the Constitution. randome Jul 2013 #180

Ah, so as long as it's been "ruled" -- a la Dred Scott -- we underlings dare not question villager Jul 2013 #183

Question it all you want. Change it. It's all the same to me. randome Jul 2013 #188

Actually, until we see those too-secret-for-our-own-good FISA court rulings villager Jul 2013 #190

More transparency, less secrecy. We all agree on that. randome Jul 2013 #191

Indeed we do! villager Jul 2013 #192

None of them hacked into US computers, downloaded classified documents, pnwmom Jul 2013 #57

Snowden didn't share information with Chinese or Russian leaders Maedhros Jul 2013 #112

If he had written it on a men's room stall... randome Jul 2013 #114

Then there's no reason to misrepresent what he did. [n/t] Maedhros Jul 2013 #171

The Chinese leaders could actually read about the documents in the Chinese newspapers. pnwmom Jul 2013 #194

There is a distinct difference in the traditional application of the law Maedhros Jul 2013 #196

Not when they give US classified documents to the newspapers of a foreign power. pnwmom Jul 2013 #197

So naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #6

Ellsberg had evidence, the Pentagon Papers. Snowden has PowerPoint slides. randome Jul 2013 #8

so? naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #10

And it is always worth violating an oath or refusing unlawful orders... randome Jul 2013 #14

Evidently Ellsberg himself disagrees with you Fumesucker Jul 2013 #11

And I disagree with Ellsberg. randome Jul 2013 #16

You know who else had an opinion? Fumesucker Jul 2013 #37

OOOO Oo oo oo ! that's CHEATING! sibelian Jul 2013 #47

Daniel Ellsberg is senile. n/t QC Jul 2013 #73

If Ellsberg hadn't released the PP, we could have HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #130

Published where? No newspaper has this. . .nothing on the internet. Hell, Nanjing to Seoul Jul 2013 #46

Here is the link to IP address info. randome Jul 2013 #50

But if it's a legal, open program that it is sanctioned by law under the Patriot Act, what's the Nanjing to Seoul Jul 2013 #56

But it's Congress's job to sell those secrets! nt valerief Jul 2013 #75

I'd bet your telecom company does more selling than the NSA. randome Jul 2013 #79

Then why haven't we filed charges against the Weekly World News? Savannahmann Jul 2013 #93

Telling lies is not treason, although it's definitely grounds for dismissal. randome Jul 2013 #96

But the programs have been denounced here as lies Savannahmann Jul 2013 #102

Read other posts in this thread. randome Jul 2013 #104

Baloney Savannahmann Jul 2013 #105

I'm not trying to 'have' anything both ways. This is what he did. randome Jul 2013 #109

Put up or shut up! TM99 Jul 2013 #159

PRISM is an actual program. No one doubts that. randome Jul 2013 #162

So in other words, TM99 Jul 2013 #172

Character assumptions aside... randome Jul 2013 #174

Ironic really what you write. TM99 Jul 2013 #181

He gave them the IP addresses of the computers we were hacking. randome Jul 2013 #182

Allegedly? TM99 Jul 2013 #185

Heh heh heh. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #2

Because he wasn't s'ponsed to talk about it not existing. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #3

Metadata does not belong to you. stonecutter357 Jul 2013 #12

When did Progressives become the party of unquestioning obedience to authority? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #15

When did progressives start accepting libertarian woo with no criticism? baldguy Jul 2013 #18

Libertarians are against restrictions on owning pit bulls. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #21

Does that mean we should ALWAYS support them on every issue? baldguy Jul 2013 #26

You and the other one made the blanket declaration, not me. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #34

Your Post #15 baldguy Jul 2013 #40

No, the complaint against spying on Americans was given the unqualified dismissal of Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #42

No, it's because Snowden is a libertarian with controversial, contradictory and irrational ideas baldguy Jul 2013 #49

Then he can't be a criminal. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #53

Theft is still a crime. Exposing secret information is still a crime. baldguy Jul 2013 #55

Lies, misleading statements and exaggerations can't be secrets. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #61

But exposing methods & practices, as well as active intelligence agents (as he has threatened to do) baldguy Jul 2013 #74

You are stonecutter357 Jul 2013 #30

They can also send police or soldiers to ransack people's homes. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #38

Interesting that Progressives are supposed to march in lockstep behind anyone treestar Jul 2013 #179

There is a case that needs overturned. sibelian Jul 2013 #51

Yes, PRISM is real. However, Snowden made a few false statements and exaggerations. Galraedia Jul 2013 #23

"If Snowden was interested in the truth he wouldn't be making false claims and exaggerations." baldguy Jul 2013 #29

To hell with the President's privacy. He's just another public employee. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #32

when? stonecutter357 Jul 2013 #36

Because the government is keeping data on its citizens. sibelian Jul 2013 #58

The 4th Amendment regulates searches. It has never been an absolute. randome Jul 2013 #64

No, that's not good enough. sibelian Jul 2013 #66

It has been this way since Bush, Jr. days. randome Jul 2013 #70

All hail, Bush! Long may he reign. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #78

What people "claim" or do not "claim" is irrelevant, randome sibelian Jul 2013 #80

Even the 'genius' hacker could not get evidence to support his claims. randome Jul 2013 #82

Apparently those who have the power assure us they are to be trusted. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #72

You may have accepted it. I haven't. Fuddnik Jul 2013 #83

Metal detectors. Drug-sniffing dogs. Drug tests. DNA collection. Fingerprinting. randome Jul 2013 #87

Spell check can't help you now. You're in the dark land of bad homophones. DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #111

It's stonecutter357 Jul 2013 #115

Awwww, come on. I wasn't going er. DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #116

Thanks stonecutter357 Jul 2013 #117

You too DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #118

For the same reason that... backscatter712 Jul 2013 #27

Also they claim that he is a liar but the PowerPoint slide he provided proves that the rhett o rick Jul 2013 #41

I'm sorry, but something just doesn't smell right about Snowden. watoos Jul 2013 #48

Maybe I don't give a shit. sibelian Jul 2013 #60

Or at least Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #65

Because he's a felonious lawbreaking criminal wrongdoing badness type guy sibelian Jul 2013 #52

It's NOT a figment of his imagination or even under dispute that pnwmom Jul 2013 #54

I'm OK seeing Snowden go to jail for those crimes Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #63

No one has shown that any criminal laws have been broken yet pnwmom Jul 2013 #71

They violated the 4th Amendment and no law can trump that. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #76

Collecting telephone metadata has already been ruled by the Supreme Court pnwmom Jul 2013 #195

It is really simple. He STOLE information & gave it to China/Russia. How some can't grasp KittyWampus Jul 2013 #59

Then he can share a cell with James Clapper. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #62

total non sequitor. KittyWampus Jul 2013 #121

Sharing a cell with Aldrich Ames or Robert Hanssen might be more appropriate. n/t bornskeptic Jul 2013 #166

What information did he give to Russia? I could say I am the Queen of England on the internet sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #69

Please, you know damn full well he did. HE ADMITS IT AND IS GOING TO GO THROUGH HIS FILES KittyWampus Jul 2013 #122

I don't know any such thing. I know what has been released, that is all. You stated sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #184

sick, here you go. KittyWampus Jul 2013 #187

But everybody already ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #189

Because there is no need for logic when you are defending the indefensible. You just keep throwing sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #67

There is a difference between making a big hullabaloo about hedgehog Jul 2013 #68

Good job! Arctic Dave Jul 2013 #81

The info he gave to the Chinese had nothing to do with domestic surveilance, PRISM or phone metadata arely staircase Jul 2013 #86

But many want to use the fact of the former to dismiss the latter. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #88

I just use it to point out that he is a traitor. nt arely staircase Jul 2013 #90

I think you need to go back and read your own OP. KittyWampus Jul 2013 #123

No the technology DOES exist. VanillaRhapsody Jul 2013 #95

Wrongo Savannahmann Jul 2013 #132

This will be completely ignored again in subsequent threads on this subject, Benton D Struckcheon Jul 2013 #131

Personally, I think he's lying about that. randome Jul 2013 #133

They can't treat it as a lie. Benton D Struckcheon Jul 2013 #136

Or they could simply wait and see who gets killed. randome Jul 2013 #140

Yeah, well, I don't know about the rest of these people, Benton D Struckcheon Jul 2013 #143

OK, now the next question. Savannahmann Jul 2013 #137

I just have to keep repeating myself cause you guys keep circling back to the same, Benton D Struckcheon Jul 2013 #139

Again Booz Allen is a contracting company. Savannahmann Jul 2013 #149

Go ask Snowden. Benton D Struckcheon Jul 2013 #154

Because it's politically inconvenient to remind people we're getting screwed? DirkGently Jul 2013 #145

Evidence counts. Snowden has not shown any. randome Jul 2013 #153

Which "undercover agents" has he outed? DirkGently Jul 2013 #157

He said he had access to that info and strongly implied he would release it. randome Jul 2013 #161

I thought he & Greenwald said they were vetting to avoid that. DirkGently Jul 2013 #163

I think they said initially that vetting was occurring. randome Jul 2013 #165

I don't think it helps the NSA if Snowden is lying or exaggerating. DirkGently Jul 2013 #168

Capt Kirk fried the electronic brain in the doomsday machine NOMAD by asking such a trick question. Octafish Jul 2013 #155

My daughters -just turned 16- have become Trekkies. randome Jul 2013 #158

Ours may be an 'Associative Universe' Octafish Jul 2013 #164

It is an amazing universe. randome Jul 2013 #167

And it's nothing we didn't already know!!! dkf Jul 2013 #173

Straw man treestar Jul 2013 #175