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In reply to the discussion: Greenwald makes another Snowden dump. This time Brazil papers. US spied on millions of e-mails calls [View all]Denzil_DC
(7,222 posts)51. Back in 2008, Greenwald refused to believe Al Giordano about all this
Giordano received an email from Greenwald:
Giordano replied (edited down to isolate the germane points):
Greenwald replied:
Giordano then basically told Greenwald to do his own donkey work on this. Greenwald's reply:
The commenters on Giordano's post easily turned up plenty of published evidence backing it up just by using Google.
Other than having a "scoop" delivered via Snowden, what changed between July 2008, when Greenwald refused to believe this was happening and seemed incapable of doing or unwilling to do basic research and dismissed those who'd already been campaigning on this, and now?
Hint: There was an election.
Someone just sent me a link to this claim you made yesterday:
What's your basis for stating that every country in the hemisphere other than the three you mentioned turns over all communications involving a U.S. citizen to the U.S. Government?
Glenn Greenwald
Yes, this is already going on but not illegally! Here's how. All communications between the US and Mexico (and any other US ally) are being vacuumed up already by the Mexican-owned telecom companies and turned over to US agencies, with the full blessing of the Mexican state. The same goes for every other country in the hemisphere save Cuba and maybe Venezuela and/or Bolivia. Nothing illegal about it, because it's done with the imprimatur of those governments that have jurisdiction.
What's your basis for stating that every country in the hemisphere other than the three you mentioned turns over all communications involving a U.S. citizen to the U.S. Government?
Glenn Greenwald
Giordano replied (edited down to isolate the germane points):
In 1998, the Mexican daily El Universal reported on the existence of a telephone surveillance headquarters in Mexico City operated by the DEA with the permission of the Mexican government that did not solicit nor honor the concept of warranting their work with court orders and such. Since then, obviously, technological advances make all of this much easier for them to do on a wholesale level. In 2000 I asked some questions of the then-US ambassador to Mexico, in writing, about that and related matters:
http://www.narconews.com/questions.html
Predictably, he chose not to answer. But it's not even a well-kept secret in those circles that whatever technologies are available for surveillance purposes are being used to their maximum potential in Mexico and elsewhere simply because they can. (The concepts of case law and court precedents are entirely different in Mexico and elsewhere; there's no available recourse or protection from this, and no law being broken when a foreign government or company turns over information gained by unwarranted surveillance to US agencies. It's a loophole big enough to drive a Mac truck - or a Macintosh - through it.)
To answer your question more succinctly: Multiple sources in US and foreign police and intelligence agencies say that all communications between the US and Mexico and any other ally are being vacuumed up by foreign telecom companies and turned over to US agencies. They've said it for years, by the way. (Consequentially, I never say anything via email or telephone that I wouldn't mind them hearing. I think that's the bare minimum that a journalist or dissident has to do in this day and age for our own protection.)
http://www.narconews.com/questions.html
Predictably, he chose not to answer. But it's not even a well-kept secret in those circles that whatever technologies are available for surveillance purposes are being used to their maximum potential in Mexico and elsewhere simply because they can. (The concepts of case law and court precedents are entirely different in Mexico and elsewhere; there's no available recourse or protection from this, and no law being broken when a foreign government or company turns over information gained by unwarranted surveillance to US agencies. It's a loophole big enough to drive a Mac truck - or a Macintosh - through it.)
To answer your question more succinctly: Multiple sources in US and foreign police and intelligence agencies say that all communications between the US and Mexico and any other ally are being vacuumed up by foreign telecom companies and turned over to US agencies. They've said it for years, by the way. (Consequentially, I never say anything via email or telephone that I wouldn't mind them hearing. I think that's the bare minimum that a journalist or dissident has to do in this day and age for our own protection.)
Greenwald replied:
Can you point to anything published -- rather than claims you now make about what secret sources tell you -- to support your claim? Your claim wasn't restricted to Mexico, but to all countries in the hemisphere -- which includes Canada, Brazil, Argentina, and many others -- which are turning over communications with U.S. citizens to the U.S. Government.
That is an extraordinary claim to make -- in your desperate effort to defend Barack Obama in all that He does -- and I simply asked for your basis for the claim. Given how you responded, it doesn't surprise me that you would find a very simple, politely stated request of that kind to be offensive.
Glenn Greenwald
That is an extraordinary claim to make -- in your desperate effort to defend Barack Obama in all that He does -- and I simply asked for your basis for the claim. Given how you responded, it doesn't surprise me that you would find a very simple, politely stated request of that kind to be offensive.
Glenn Greenwald
Giordano then basically told Greenwald to do his own donkey work on this. Greenwald's reply:
In other words, you have no basis for your claim that all governments in the hemisphere other than a few turn over to the U.S. government all communications involving U.S. citizens. You just made it up.
The commenters on Giordano's post easily turned up plenty of published evidence backing it up just by using Google.
Other than having a "scoop" delivered via Snowden, what changed between July 2008, when Greenwald refused to believe this was happening and seemed incapable of doing or unwilling to do basic research and dismissed those who'd already been campaigning on this, and now?
Hint: There was an election.
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Greenwald makes another Snowden dump. This time Brazil papers. US spied on millions of e-mails calls [View all]
Catherina
Jul 2013
OP
Explains "Obama's involvement"? Where does that knowledge-based conclusion come from?
randome
Jul 2013
#1
Well...I was responding to your explicit assertion that the information did not belong to NSA.
MADem
Jul 2013
#149
Don't ask, I have read the thread and have no idea what s/he is talking about either, but
sabrina 1
Jul 2013
#156
And I will continue to to maintain they are in violation of the 4th, among other Amendments
RC
Jul 2013
#50
They are a rogue agency because they are operating outside the Constitution.
JDPriestly
Jul 2013
#67
The courts have not yet decided a case involving this massive collection of metadata.
JDPriestly
Jul 2013
#78
Correct, Nadin... This can't possibly be about terrorism. My pick is, as you've said, "resistance to
truth2power
Jul 2013
#166
Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it seems pretty obvious to me that you're right.... nt
RedCappedBandit
Jul 2013
#26
What Nadin and StraightStory said + industrial espionage, intellectual property theft
Catherina
Jul 2013
#10
Hey! Wanna talk about national security surveillance, the Fourth Amendment, and SPECIFICITY?
cherokeeprogressive
Jul 2013
#20
Not that big of a deal really. I'm sure a lot of ignore list additions have happened in the last
stevenleser
Jul 2013
#41
See my #85. I dont ignore people who actually have real arguments to make. nt
stevenleser
Jul 2013
#86
Their arguments decide. Do they have facts or are they emoting? How do they react when
stevenleser
Jul 2013
#92
Unlike you, I have proof when I say something. I can easily disprove what you just said.
stevenleser
Jul 2013
#85
I know, I find it funny that so many refuse to engage on the facts too!!!! LMAO!!!!!
stevenleser
Jul 2013
#105
Greenwald lives in Brazil....Brazilian companies in partnership..this is why it is a trap
HipChick
Jul 2013
#8
Damn you, Catherina, you just sent the Snowden-bashers back to the drawing board!
backscatter712
Jul 2013
#25
The Brazilians hate us for our freedom?..democracy?...privacy?...well, something.
Tierra_y_Libertad
Jul 2013
#34
the proof is in watching neo-liberals shitting their pants over these disclosures
frylock
Jul 2013
#70
The link just leads to a news article -- there are no new Snowden documents published
FarCenter
Jul 2013
#46
Everything that is not encrypted by systems under your organization's control is assumed insecure
FarCenter
Jul 2013
#61
A new report states that the Feds scan all mail as it travels thru the Post Office.
blkmusclmachine
Jul 2013
#71
I'm not trying to be obtuse here; I'm going to ask again: What information is new?
Raine1967
Jul 2013
#82
This article is in Portuguese, in a Brazilian paper, for a Brazilian Audience
Catherina
Jul 2013
#94
Everyone every where should realize Big Brother is just trying to keep us and all
indepat
Jul 2013
#96
Bill Hicks said it so much better than I. We should all go back to our mundane existences, sousing
indepat
Jul 2013
#120
So? Our spying agency is spying on Brazil, and has been doing so for THREE DECADES.
pnwmom
Jul 2013
#153