General Discussion

dawg

(10,777 posts)

33. You are missing the forest for the trees.

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:48 PM

Jul 2013

Of course they have concocted a legal justification for their spying. That is a given. Remember how George W. Bush got John Yoo to write-up a legal justification for torture? And the Jim Crow laws were legal too. (And it looks like they might be legal once again.)

Because some obscure subsection of some statue can be strained so as to mean what they want it to mean does not make it right.

We know the difference between the metadata and the content already. You aren't enlightening anyone with your explanation.

We simply disagree with your conclusions regarding the Constitutionality of blanket surveillance of all Americans, even if only at the metadata level. We have seen the legal underpinnings they are using to support this and we have the same respect for them that we had for John Yoo's defense of "enhanced interrogation".

We think that it is dangerous for the NSA to maintain a database of metadata on all citizens. No one has yet accused the President of abusing this data, but apparently lots of people have access to it. And Obama will not always be President.

We want this policy changed.

We don't accept that it is legal under the Fourth Amendment, and we believe that any and all of the court cases and statues being used to justify this invasion of privacy are invalid because they conflict with the plain meaning of the amendment.

What we don't understand is why so many of our fellow DU'ers are so eager to support NSA blanket surveillance. Would you really be making the same argument if Jeb Bush were President?

Search your heart.

Would you really be defending these policies under President Bush?

Be honest.
(Or at least be honest to yourself.)

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I have gone through the Snowden slides about as well as anyone could... [View all] jmowreader Jul 2013 OP

Wow. Very thorough. randome Jul 2013 #1

And what is the conclusion you came to after reading all of this and then comparing it sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #35

Yes. And other people with experience in and knowledge of security agencies Maedhros Jul 2013 #37

I know which people I care to listen to. truedelphi Jul 2013 #72

The NSA merely awaits the inauguration of President Santorum and Vice President Cruz on January 20, HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #75

How do you get past the fact that the OP has no comprehension of numbers or arithmatic? reusrename Jul 2013 #79

I believe they are collecting internals. NYC_SKP Jul 2013 #2

Caution??...you mean less efforts to stop a terrorist attack? Vietnameravet Jul 2013 #6

Privacy > Security NYC_SKP Jul 2013 #12

+1000 Cleita Jul 2013 #24

+2 truebluegreen Jul 2013 #36

And can you explain how this would stop a terrorist attack? It didn't stop the Boston sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #39

I don't believe for a minute that it was ever about terrorists. NYC_SKP Jul 2013 #56

I love how you are so quick to invoke Boston bombings davidpdx Jul 2013 #82

Of course they didn't, unless they were stupid. That is the point, isn't it? They are spying sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #83

My point is that was one case davidpdx Jul 2013 #84

Yes, they have both been great on this. Wyden has long tried to warn the people sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #85

Invoking the "terrorists" ought to be a corrolary of Godwin's Law at this point n/t Scootaloo Jul 2013 #57

Okay, how are they getting ALL the internals? jmowreader Jul 2013 #16

When this old story first broke in 2006, I was an SBC customer. SBC bought AT&T.... NYC_SKP Jul 2013 #18

The Question of *How* Doesn't Appear to be Relevant On the Road Jul 2013 #76

I agree-- my feelings exactly NoMoreWarNow Jul 2013 #61

I agree. klook Jul 2013 #69

Don't need to do no cipherin.' reusrename Jul 2013 #80

Well then, since it does not violate the consititution, they can share all that data with us The Straight Story Jul 2013 #3

Would you apply that to IRS data? jberryhill Jul 2013 #58

If the nsa has access to it, sure. Hmm are they using IRS data as well and is that legal? The Straight Story Jul 2013 #64

This is what I would like to see. Honestly. reusrename Jul 2013 #81

Some dont want to hear this Vietnameravet Jul 2013 #4

Hear what? They are tracking the phone data of American citizens. What about this sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #43

This is what is happening... Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #5

Excellent Video usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #13

You are welcome! Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #14

No harm, no foul? Then why are they pursuing him for divulging "secrets"? Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #7

he stole documents. he gave information to foreign countries. he admits it. KittyWampus Jul 2013 #11

But, according to the OP it was harmless. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #15

When you steal something you are committing a crime. It's really that simple. KittyWampus Jul 2013 #21

When you lie a country into war, it is a major crime. But we don't prosecute criminals sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #50

that is changing the subject. The subject was one person who stole documents from the NSA. KittyWampus Jul 2013 #60

The subject is crime. Stealing is a crime, it has degrees, like murder, murder has degrees. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #66

Silly rabbit. Proecution is only for matters committed by mere truedelphi Jul 2013 #86

The NSA hides the key to the washroom. They hide EVERYTHING. jmowreader Jul 2013 #22

I went so far as to lay out how FISA giftedgirl77 Jul 2013 #8

the FISA court loaded with conservative judges as appointed by justice roberts? frylock Jul 2013 #19

What I said is the program is a lot giftedgirl77 Jul 2013 #23

so what's this agenda that you speak of? frylock Jul 2013 #25

Everyone has an agenda in case you haven't giftedgirl77 Jul 2013 #31

yeh see i'm not buying into that bullshit.. frylock Jul 2013 #63

I'm not trying to sell you anything giftedgirl77 Jul 2013 #68

So you would rather take the other people with an agenda at their word? truebluegreen Jul 2013 #32

Like I said previously & linked to giftedgirl77 Jul 2013 #38

I get that. How many requests were turned down? truebluegreen Jul 2013 #45

Just for the point blank FISA requests giftedgirl77 Jul 2013 #71

Spoken like a prosecutor. truebluegreen Jul 2013 #87

The FISA court that is refusing all FOIA requests truebluegreen Jul 2013 #29

Bump,Kick and Rec..many folks on DU just seem to want to buy into the Hyperbole.. HipChick Jul 2013 #9

Great post. Scurrilous Jul 2013 #10

Thank you for using logic and facts. jazzimov Jul 2013 #17

Thoughtful post. K&R BenzoDia Jul 2013 #20

The Young Turks And The New York Times Would Disagree cantbeserious Jul 2013 #26

+100 RC Jul 2013 #67

Great post, great info flamingdem Jul 2013 #27

Its all been a weird, wet fantasy railsback Jul 2013 #28

I don't think when people say it is illegal they actually mean illegal. I think they mean A Simple Game Jul 2013 #30

I quite agree "legal" v. constitutional 99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #77

You are missing the forest for the trees. dawg Jul 2013 #33

Actually, ProSense Jul 2013 #40

Bullshit! dawg Jul 2013 #44

Yelling "bullshit" doesn't change what you just said. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #51

Do you like the Patriot Act, ProSense? dawg Jul 2013 #52

No it's only because this is happening under Obama that makes it OK. Bush could never get away with totodeinhere Jul 2013 #53

The Young Turks Spell Out How Even The Patriot Act Author Sees PRISM As Illegal - Among Others cantbeserious Jul 2013 #47

You do understand that we aren't trying to build an impeachment case. dawg Jul 2013 #48

+100000000 forestpath Jul 2013 #41

If the NSA surveillance program does not harvest information illegally Maedhros Jul 2013 #34

Thanks for an informed and logical post. macspanicattack Jul 2013 #42

K & R, great post, some heavy information, don't know if it will halt the paranoia but I agree with Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #46

actually Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson have written on this subject Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #49

Thank you. Such statements might very well fall into that Orwellian truedelphi Jul 2013 #74

Excellent post. sagat Jul 2013 #54

all I know is this data collection is not about terrorism-- that's a bogus excuse NoMoreWarNow Jul 2013 #55

also-- it is incredibly naive to think that the NSA isn't abusing this data collection system NoMoreWarNow Jul 2013 #59

R#30 & K for, I don't understand the technical stuff, so my reactions are focused on UTUSN Jul 2013 #62

careful--this is how the "ballerina-evader" meme got started MisterP Jul 2013 #65

Your informed post will fall on deaf ears alcibiades_mystery Jul 2013 #70

To this post COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #73

I Really Appreciate the Background, jmowreader, On the Road Jul 2013 #78

Thanks for posting that. nt MineralMan Jul 2013 #88