General Discussion

LWolf

(46,179 posts)

88. The big schism on DU has been here since its inception.

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:46 PM

Jul 2013

Pre-DU3, the site self-identified as a "left-wing" forum that "supports Democrats." There's the built-in schism right there. The Democratic Party is not "left-wing."

Moving to DU3, the language was changed. With a center-right Democratic administration in the WH to support and defend, the "left-wing" designation has been replaced by "liberal," and the site is no longer "underground" per se. Those "liberals" who are also "left-wing" and are still here find themselves in conflict with the current administration. Meanwhile, those who are partisans first, whose only real interest in the site or in politics at all are partisan are going to be busy justifying whatever, as long as it's a Democrat who does it.

It's always been here, it's not going away, and the latest scandals are just the newest wave of conflict.

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The big schism on DU appears to be over exactly what we objected to about Bush [View all] WonderGrunion Jul 2013 OP

Neh, SNOWDEN/GREENWALD is about SNOWDEN/GREENWALD. UTUSN Jul 2013 #1

The personalities are part of it WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #7

And "some" people can have their opinion and "other" people (me) can have mine. n/t UTUSN Jul 2013 #17

More to the point, we should all have our own opinion WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #20

Or "authoritarians". n/t UTUSN Jul 2013 #22

best way to avoid being labeled an authoritarian is to not voice support.. frylock Jul 2013 #76

Best way for you not to be one is not to attempt to shut down dissenting opinions, besides UTUSN Jul 2013 #91

this nt Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #96

Part of being an adult is realizing there are not clear, bright lines in everything. jeff47 Jul 2013 #117

+10 That is pretty obvious to some of us. RC Jul 2013 #129

or totalitarians however, saying Ron/Rand Paul is one, is racist is the truth. He is what he is. graham4anything Jul 2013 #33

A piece of paper that says "warrant" that actually throws a dragnet over TheKentuckian Jul 2013 #40

Well now................. JimboBillyBubbaBob Jul 2013 #61

+100 nt 99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #105

It's an exaggeration to say that Bush was a logical continuance. mattclearing Jul 2013 #116

George Bush was such a logical continuance of Reagan that he was a systemic necessity TheKentuckian Jul 2013 #162

Good thing they aren't doing that then. jeff47 Jul 2013 #124

No, the access to the metadata is via dragnet "warrants". TheKentuckian Jul 2013 #164

No, the recording of the metadata is. jeff47 Jul 2013 #167

Merely, the logical continuance of a more pervasive and larger systemic cancer. RC Jul 2013 #132

Yep. The invasions of privacy and seizures are occurring. I am sick of hearing how the GoneFishin Jul 2013 #154

And that accountability is how? marble falls Jul 2013 #62

How do you know he has restored accountability when you don't know what they are doing? dkf Jul 2013 #81

Then why didn't Snowden leak that? jeff47 Jul 2013 #127

Not done yet. dkf Jul 2013 #134

Your argument would only make sense if you weren't assuming that was coming. jeff47 Jul 2013 #135

Thank you for your post RainDog Jul 2013 #92

Then why didn't Snowden leak those? jeff47 Jul 2013 #128

I don't know why Snowden is doing what he's doing RainDog Jul 2013 #141

That's a very long way to go to dodge the question. jeff47 Jul 2013 #151

lol. I'm not dodging any question RainDog Jul 2013 #152

No it's not, nor is that comic strip which is at least 14 months old because Crock Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #9

Both things can be true, see my Disclaimer. It was in today's Sunday comics. UTUSN Jul 2013 #14

Yeah. A 'comics editor' has no rights to alter content of a protected work by others. Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #31

You're mis-reading and injecting your projections and motives *again*!1 UTUSN Jul 2013 #44

Funny thing is, we laugh at the GOP for being in lockstep no matter what - djean111 Jul 2013 #2

+1 Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 #3

I agree, we are either a Big Tent Party or we aren't WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #4

Or you get called ... JoePhilly Jul 2013 #15

That's exactly right, CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #57

Exactly treestar Jul 2013 #72

Did you see the thread today in which the OP says JoePhilly Jul 2013 #85

Yes. treestar Jul 2013 #101

+2. n/t NRaleighLiberal Jul 2013 #64

The 23%ers or whatever that floor was. dkf Jul 2013 #84

My biggest gripe with the evil Bush/Cheney empire was Iraq. DCBob Jul 2013 #5

I agree completely WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #16

Obama merely followed Bush's lead to end the occupation in Iraq. Lasher Jul 2013 #25

I assume the people defending Obama's warrantless spying also defended Bush? HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #6

I've yet to see anything credible that shows President Obama is breaking the law. WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #10

Yeah, well Obama never halted his sermons against marrige equality because it Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #19

Obama hates the gayz. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #104

Of course you haven't. HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #21

I don't understand how anyone can make that argument, then turn around and Marr Jul 2013 #35

+100 truebluegreen Jul 2013 #50

Then why didn't Snowden leak that? jeff47 Jul 2013 #130

There are all manner of articles describing Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #119

So you still have not gotten that Obama went back to the warrants treestar Jul 2013 #73

Broad warrants, that include everyone. HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #78

That has been going on since the late 1970s treestar Jul 2013 #102

No. It was Obama lawyers that argued before FISA court for broad warrants. HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #103

No it has not. nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #120

You realize it isn't your data, right? jeff47 Jul 2013 #133

And content? email? internet usage? HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #136

None of that has been backed up by leaks. jeff47 Jul 2013 #138

Clapper was already caught lying about it, remember? HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #140

No, you are confusing multiple programs. jeff47 Jul 2013 #150

Thanks for posting this. Amonester Jul 2013 #153

Overly broad warrants are a violation of the constitution too. JoeyT Jul 2013 #107

Any defendant can challenge the warrant in court treestar Jul 2013 #114

You don't know if they are based on the rule of law Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #121

A solution for that: treestar Jul 2013 #126

There is no "schism" here on DU. Vinnie From Indy Jul 2013 #8

I'm not just talking about Snowden and Greenwald, in reality they are a sideshow WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #11

True Vinnie From Indy Jul 2013 #23

It sounds like Obama should have taken the oath of office to uphold all laws except the laws started Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #53

If that was the actual case, I'd think you would spend time not in the chiding of Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #26

I'm chiding myself as much as anyone else WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #34

That sure is not what you typed. Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #47

Or I can leave it unedited and let this exchange stand as it is WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #49

Well - as you pointed out Ms. Toad Jul 2013 #67

+1, very true. Marr Jul 2013 #37

This was one of the best and well thought out posts I've seen in quite some time! NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #12

Thank you WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #24

The folks doing Pin Up Politics about Snowden and Greenwald are a tiny lot of DUers Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #13

It's not just the issue of Snowden and Greenwald WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #27

More vague language a 'host of issues'. Ok, let's look at one. Let's look at marriage Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #38

I have always supported marriage equality and you can check my Journal WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #45

So your claim is that opposition to equality is not homophobia nor bigotry? Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #55

I would appreciate links for information RainDog Jul 2013 #93

Were we mad at boosh for receiving the intelligence or for dissing it? Tikki Jul 2013 #18

Osama bin Laden Determined to Attack Within The United States WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #30

Interesting perspective. Union Scribe Jul 2013 #28

Principle, moral principle, is always my guide. Savannahmann Jul 2013 #29

+100 nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #122

True, but you'll have a hard time selling that. Some have actually convinced themselves Doctor_J Jul 2013 #32

+100 truebluegreen Jul 2013 #52

Question remains for me nineteen50 Jul 2013 #60

Because he doesn't work for us Doctor_J Jul 2013 #70

President Obama has graham4anything Jul 2013 #36

Interesting perspective. Some on this board wanted Obama to be more HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #39

I'm not sure if this country was ready for, or deserved, an FDR or Lincoln WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #41

I'm reading Doris Kearns Goodwin's "Team of Rivals" for the HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #46

Ready for? Deserved? truebluegreen Jul 2013 #58

I disagree with that. Ms. Toad Jul 2013 #68

I should add that saying Obama is "more moral" than Bush is damning the HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #82

It's more basic then that. baldguy Jul 2013 #42

Yup. I am so sick of being attacked by my fellow DUers just for asking for a link. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #69

Well said. nt bluestate10 Jul 2013 #118

Many here were rightly disturbed on the whole war lies/we need info/it's for your own good thing.. Safetykitten Jul 2013 #43

I am disturbed about the same things that have been disturbing me since about 1968. bemildred Jul 2013 #48

People voted for Obama to not be like Bush Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #51

nope. The schism is between those who have supported Obama from the beginning and those who haven't. MjolnirTime Jul 2013 #54

I don't think it is nearly as black and white as that. Not in my case, anyway. n/t NRaleighLiberal Jul 2013 #66

you are a liar RainDog Jul 2013 #99

"you are part of the problem here". Cha Jul 2013 #145

Dead on. I see the same usernames attacking President Obama over the NSA dustup bluestate10 Jul 2013 #123

I do see a lot of the same ol same.. Cha Jul 2013 #146

The "no true scotsman" fallacy. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jul 2013 #158

K&R. Feels like Bush is still president to me. Only now his policies are being defended since forestpath Jul 2013 #56

Yeah, because it's exactly the same thing. Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #59

Why Do You Assume RobinA Jul 2013 #109

One is often readily able to Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #137

The good guys are doing it now is what we can't get them to understand. ileus Jul 2013 #63

United or untied? jimlup Jul 2013 #65

Since Obama went back to the FISC treestar Jul 2013 #71

Nonsense. Ms. Toad Jul 2013 #86

No they are laws treestar Jul 2013 #100

So everyone over 18 is required to smoke, then? Ms. Toad Jul 2013 #106

I wish you would make this brilliant reply HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #139

Your Last RobinA Jul 2013 #110

The need for the court is a law that Bush ignored. You can dance around the issue all you want. bluestate10 Jul 2013 #125

The only dancing being done Ms. Toad Jul 2013 #142

"War Based On Lies" is exactly why I will never trust this fucked up government. L0oniX Jul 2013 #74

"Your principles are tested by where you stand truth2power Jul 2013 #75

My Objections Are "War" And "Wiretapping" - Means I Am Very Disappointed In Obama cantbeserious Jul 2013 #77

You miss a few things. caseymoz Jul 2013 #79

I Think You Nailed The Description Of Some DU Participants cantbeserious Jul 2013 #83

You call the FISA Court a rubberstamp? How in the hell did you come up with that conclusion? bluestate10 Jul 2013 #131

...huh? Union Scribe Jul 2013 #144

Whoops. They are 100% wrong and will not be able to do that. Bonobo Jul 2013 #156

Rejection rate by FISA: .03 percent. caseymoz Jul 2013 #157

Don't know about the schism (haven't been here), but there's another... polichick Jul 2013 #80

Seems like people objected to Bush doing it because he was a Republican. Apophis Jul 2013 #87

The big schism on DU has been here since its inception. LWolf Jul 2013 #88

I was on DU when the DLC crowd tried to bully us into supporting the War against Iraq Jack Rabbit Jul 2013 #89

Then we were "unpatriotic". Now we're racists Doctor_J Jul 2013 #94

can you believe this shyte? Skittles Jul 2013 #159

worthy of its own thread, Jack Rabbit Skittles Jul 2013 #160

at least you are allowing for sensible reasons for both perspectives Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #90

which you have also engaged in, fwiw. RainDog Jul 2013 #95

I doubt I brought race into the mix re: Obama on DU. Other places? Sure. Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #97

I don't think you've done that, specifically RainDog Jul 2013 #98

it is "obsessive defenders", not "defenders" Skittles Jul 2013 #161

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are over?!?!? Really? Why are there still troops on the ground ? bowens43 Jul 2013 #108

I'm not giving the Obama administration a pass on this, however, I'm not Cleita Jul 2013 #111

Calling this a "warrant" is a perversion of the very term LittleBlue Jul 2013 #112

Exactly is invariably used by people that are trying to pass off a falsehood. bluestate10 Jul 2013 #113

I think the big tent is too big felix_numinous Jul 2013 #115

I believe in Howard Dean's 50 State Strategy WonderGrunion Jul 2013 #147

I forgot about that felix_numinous Jul 2013 #149

Good points. But it's sad that 10 years on, this even needed to be explained to people. Number23 Jul 2013 #143

"Secret laws" and "secret courts" are inconsistent with constitutional republic. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2013 #148

+Brazillion. nt Bonobo Jul 2013 #155

I have no idea how the Clinton administration got their intelligence on the imminent plans... Tikki Jul 2013 #163

With * it was only 1 of the things nolabels Jul 2013 #165

Exactly usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #166