General Discussion

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)

107. Good article. I like this line:

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 10:57 AM

Jul 2013

"This fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between “moral” and “legal” has been at the root of immeasurable abuse and predation on the part of the political class. Accepting this fallacy results in the most slavish boot licking on the part of the citizen class."

(I see a lot of slavish boot-licking...by the Kool-Aid crowd).

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Daniel Ellsberg: Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. [View all] Catherina Jul 2013 OP

I would of got the hell out of dodge too NoOneMan Jul 2013 #1

After seeing where this debate.... whttevrr Jul 2013 #100

He would have to be a fool to stay ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #2

I totally agree. avebury Jul 2013 #87

I disagree with Ellsberg, but ProSense Jul 2013 #3

Acknowledging that one has broken the law . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #8

Let me ProSense Jul 2013 #9

'Wrong' is a moral/ethical judgment; 'illegal' is not . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #10

So you think ProSense Jul 2013 #11

No, not in all cases and in some cases the law is immoral. cali Jul 2013 #17

That makes no sense. ProSense Jul 2013 #18

this doesn't seem difficult to me: legal and illegal are different concepts than moral and immoral cali Jul 2013 #28

Well, ProSense Jul 2013 #47

I'll just quote Mark here. He got it perfectly cali Jul 2013 #50

Well. ProSense Jul 2013 #54

This message was self-deleted by its author nenagh Jul 2013 #83

Can you answer this question please? cali Jul 2013 #84

The sound of crickets is deafening.... n/t xocet Jul 2013 #129

what heaven05 Jul 2013 #139

It's her 15 minute break. OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #149

MLK wasn't stripped naked and held in isolation. whttevrr Jul 2013 #101

"whistle blower protections" marions ghost Jul 2013 #103

"...that hypothetical doesn't change the fact that leaking classified information is a crime, but dflprincess Jul 2013 #187

With Obama in office, yes it would still be wrong AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #66

cali, that is an excellent question within your post. kentuck Jul 2013 #73

kentuck, if you'd like to pose it as a stand alone, feel free cali Jul 2013 #86

That's not even close. cheapdate Jul 2013 #186

It's not that this law is immoral hootinholler Jul 2013 #80

What "pretzel?" Slavery was "legal" - the Inquisition was "legal" bread_and_roses Jul 2013 #89

exactly marions ghost Jul 2013 #104

nailed it. heaven05 Jul 2013 #140

The "LAW" is a concept BrainDrain Jul 2013 #90

Well Said fasttense Jul 2013 #92

Laws are better than a dictator's edicts, but that doesn't mean that they are never flawed either... cascadiance Jul 2013 #143

Exactly, leaking the Pentagon papers illegal... allin99 Jul 2013 #102

Upton Sinclair has a quotation related to this topic.... xocet Jul 2013 #131

Politics among nations: The struggle for power and peace OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #148

Here's a somewhat interesting and fairly recent article about the differences cali Jul 2013 #45

Good article. I like this line: marions ghost Jul 2013 #107

I'm glad. That is a great take-away and so true cali Jul 2013 #117

It's a commonly held fallacy & marions ghost Jul 2013 #120

As noted earlier, this "discussion" (law/morality) would make a great OP in and of itself. chimpymustgo Jul 2013 #155

Slavery used to be legal too... Was it "right" because it was legal then? cascadiance Jul 2013 #74

Escaped slaves were in the wrong for fleeing to the North. Maedhros Jul 2013 #147

They obviously weren't True American Patriots (tm) or they would have turned themslves in! idwiyo Jul 2013 #178

Would you be making the same argument if Bush were still president? flpoljunkie Jul 2013 #85

She had a very different opinion when Bush was President LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #106

Bullshit. ProSense Jul 2013 #109

As I've said before LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #121

Living Colour explained opinion changes like that rather nicely: friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #137

Your own post confirms it's true. Very disingenuous of you to claim otherwise. idwiyo Jul 2013 #179

Oh Snap! whttevrr Jul 2013 #111

"Bush committed crimes by illegal spying on Americans" she said marions ghost Jul 2013 #113

Uh, like Mr Elsberg is stating, there ws a time when the system was not so damn truedelphi Jul 2013 #160

Scary, isn't it? n/t markpkessinger Jul 2013 #19

It really is. Nt Zorra Jul 2013 #51

I believe what the NSA has been doing is unethical/immoral . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #23

What the hell does that have to do with the law on leaking classified information? n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #24

Which word did you not understand? markpkessinger Jul 2013 #38

+1. this is basic stuff but you explained it well and clearly. cali Jul 2013 #46

+2 idwiyo Jul 2013 #68

+3 Enthusiast Jul 2013 #75

+4 leftstreet Jul 2013 #108

+5 marions ghost Jul 2013 #116

+6 snagglepuss Jul 2013 #169

+7 christx30 Jul 2013 #173

+8 idwiyo Jul 2013 #181

So I gather you think Ellsberg should have gone to prison . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #42

Snowden ProSense Jul 2013 #52

Those other whistleblowers did not face a climate . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #53

What the hell are you talking about? n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #55

Is this how you got 101K posts? whttevrr Jul 2013 #105

Well, ProSense Jul 2013 #110

Probably not... whttevrr Jul 2013 #115

Yeah, I doubt it too. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #118

you heaven05 Jul 2013 #141

and look what happened to Thomas Drake cali Jul 2013 #93

It really pisses you of that Ellsberg supports Snowden :) idwiyo Jul 2013 #180

They've made it illegal to expose unconstitutional actions by classifying it. dkf Jul 2013 #26

So you agree that leaking classified information is a crime? n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #32

A lesser crime than subverting the constitution which I think all branches are guilty of. dkf Jul 2013 #40

+++ marions ghost Jul 2013 #119

Well said. snagglepuss Jul 2013 #170

When entire purpose of the legislation is to protect a crime, it's not a law, it's fraud. idwiyo Jul 2013 #183

No, it's still law in that case Recursion Jul 2013 #189

That is an authoritarian mindset. HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #56

Not if the power to classify is exercised in an abitrary and overly inclusive way. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #63

Details WovenGems Jul 2013 #88

Thanks. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #62

Jimmy Carter also said other countries have the (sovereign) right to give haven to Snowden deurbano Jul 2013 #57

I don't think anybody has quetioned that right Recursion Jul 2013 #190

The law that allows a small clique to decide to classify any information they wish such as JDPriestly Jul 2013 #61

Actually it is illegal to classify something in order to cover a crime hootinholler Jul 2013 #81

They are the law nineteen50 Jul 2013 #95

Under the Constitution, the legislative branch has nearly all, almost all of the authority JDPriestly Jul 2013 #161

the only branch of government legislating today is the nineteen50 Jul 2013 #162

Karl Rove (Neo-con) said in 2008 to Ron Suskind nineteen50 Jul 2013 #94

Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman broke the law, stole something, and ran away. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #14

Yes, Edward Snowden is like Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman ProSense Jul 2013 #15

We finally agree on something. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #16

I wouldn't make such despicable comparisons. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #20

Of course you wouldn't. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #58

The point others are trying to get through to you... Scootaloo Jul 2013 #67

PLUS ONE! nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #76

Excellent analogy usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #132

you assume that Snowden fled because he broke the law. grasswire Jul 2013 #27

That is it in a nut shell. RC Jul 2013 #136

I like this sentence. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #60

Now you're getting to the heart of the matter. LuvNewcastle Jul 2013 #128

Breaking a law to do the right thing, means 'doing nothing wrong'. Not only did he do sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #99

"enemies both foreign and domestic" marions ghost Jul 2013 #123

No looking forward when it comes to Snowden. OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #146

Bang on. snagglepuss Jul 2013 #172

Of course you guys do. Question is, do you think all Americans should be treated as suspects? grahamhgreen Jul 2013 #153

We must have hope that we can save our democracy. But we first have to fight the deniers rhett o rick Jul 2013 #4

Always remember the NDAA think Jul 2013 #5

In other news, the Sun came up this morning. Same expected tomorrow nt friendlyFRIEND Jul 2013 #6

It would be much cheaper for the US if he never re-entered the US. It would save the cost of a Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #7

Would we flip out about a Soviet who fled to tell the world their secrets? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #12

Would ProSense Jul 2013 #13

See? This is what happens when the world is run by people who don't take any of this seriously... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #22

Of Course Not RobinA Jul 2013 #130

BTW: The Soviet Union was NEVER "fascist". Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #134

People use the term "fascism" Maedhros Jul 2013 #151

It is specific to the right wing despite efforts by the right to muddy things. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #158

I believe so as well. [n/t] Maedhros Jul 2013 #164

It's not a question of "Belief".... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #165

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #21

Thank you for your bloviated opinion think Jul 2013 #25

Ellsberg worked for the Rand Corporation in the 1960s. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #29

yep and he blew the whistle too! think Jul 2013 #35

I think he thought he wouldn't need th sarc tag. cali Jul 2013 #31

Wow! You really ARE major hogwash. SaveOurDemocracy Jul 2013 #30

sarasm, my friend, or I'll eat my straw hat. cali Jul 2013 #34

I certainly hope so.nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #36

I hope you know which fork to use for that kenny blankenship Jul 2013 #41

yeah, I see that. I was as wrong as wrong can be. His posts are shameful and disgusting. cali Jul 2013 #114

Possible, not real familiar with that poster. SaveOurDemocracy Jul 2013 #49

Ellsberg is a piece of white trash!! Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #37

THANKS!!! sibelian Jul 2013 #124

what???? heaven05 Jul 2013 #142

This message was self-deleted by its author Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #33

Ellsberg was right then, and he's right now. mbperrin Jul 2013 #39

This message was self-deleted by its author LumosMaxima Jul 2013 #43

Snowden's actions will likely unleash an even more draconian Patriot Act. SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #44

Translation: AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #65

The "United" States doesn't exist. SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #152

"We" didn't turn on ourselves. The right wing turned on us AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #157

Like the climate, we're hanging by a thread SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #166

didn't obama just sign that executive order? HiPointDem Jul 2013 #71

K&R DeSwiss Jul 2013 #48

That's what it boils down to. Quantess Jul 2013 #70

Yep, a sweater would seal it. DeSwiss Jul 2013 #125

So succinct and oh so true Oilwellian Jul 2013 #96

De nada. DeSwiss Jul 2013 #126

Thank you Catherina. Splendid. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #59

Of course he did AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #64

Did I just see someone implying that Ellsberg should have gone to jail? Democracyinkind Jul 2013 #69

The messenger mimi85 Jul 2013 #72

Michael Jackson was far worse Fumesucker Jul 2013 #79

Something wrong with your trash thread, ignore button or hide by keyword? n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #98

IOW Please remove this topic from my beautiful mind marions ghost Jul 2013 #127

That's me in the wig! sibelian Jul 2013 #145

LOL I think I can see you...I'm up here... marions ghost Jul 2013 #150

Someone's turned my first acid trip into a dirigible.... sibelian Jul 2013 #163

Ellsberg, Plame and WIlson, so many others burnodo Jul 2013 #77

du rec. xchrom Jul 2013 #78

Yet he conveniently neglects to mention giving classified info to China. randome Jul 2013 #82

Trivial. Those who shipped so much of our manufacturing base to China are the real traitors eridani Jul 2013 #185

If he had stayed in the country... kentuck Jul 2013 #91

"Snowden believes that he has done nothing wrong. I agree wholeheartedly" allin99 Jul 2013 #97

Josh Marshall: Kinda Curious What That Means (Ellsberg's claim) ProSense Jul 2013 #112

It means you're going to have to try harder to make the B-List, Josh. Octafish Jul 2013 #154

Yes he did make the right call. Autumn Jul 2013 #122

"spark a movement to rescue our democracy" polichick Jul 2013 #133

Catherina, having read top to bottom, I agree with you and those who saidsimplesimon Jul 2013 #135

+1000 heaven05 Jul 2013 #144

It's just disgraceful how their concerns are treated. Worse than I even thought Catherina Jul 2013 #175

K&R felix_numinous Jul 2013 #138

Thank you once again, Mr Ellsberg. truedelphi Jul 2013 #156

Ellsberg was a hero until now LittleBlue Jul 2013 #159

It surely seems like a different country. Today the cacophony is more akin to "America, America, God indepat Jul 2013 #167

Yes, but imo fleeing to Moscow and Beijing was his two biggest mistakes. Rex Jul 2013 #168

Beijing? deurbano Jul 2013 #176

As opposed to staying here where he would have been locked up in solitary Catherina Jul 2013 #177

It's time for an "Underground Railroad" for whistleblowers... ReRe Jul 2013 #188

Thank You For Your Continued Efforts Informing The DU Community cantbeserious Jul 2013 #171

OMG libodem Jul 2013 #174

I've thought so too stupidicus Jul 2013 #182

I just saw that column. BlueCheese Jul 2013 #184