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heaven05

(18,124 posts)

144. +1000

Reply to saidsimplesimon (Reply #135)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 01:38 PM

Jul 2013

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Daniel Ellsberg: Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. [View all] Catherina Jul 2013 OP

I would of got the hell out of dodge too NoOneMan Jul 2013 #1

After seeing where this debate.... whttevrr Jul 2013 #100

He would have to be a fool to stay ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #2

I totally agree. avebury Jul 2013 #87

I disagree with Ellsberg, but ProSense Jul 2013 #3

Acknowledging that one has broken the law . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #8

Let me ProSense Jul 2013 #9

'Wrong' is a moral/ethical judgment; 'illegal' is not . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #10

So you think ProSense Jul 2013 #11

No, not in all cases and in some cases the law is immoral. cali Jul 2013 #17

That makes no sense. ProSense Jul 2013 #18

this doesn't seem difficult to me: legal and illegal are different concepts than moral and immoral cali Jul 2013 #28

Well, ProSense Jul 2013 #47

I'll just quote Mark here. He got it perfectly cali Jul 2013 #50

Well. ProSense Jul 2013 #54

This message was self-deleted by its author nenagh Jul 2013 #83

Can you answer this question please? cali Jul 2013 #84

The sound of crickets is deafening.... n/t xocet Jul 2013 #129

what heaven05 Jul 2013 #139

It's her 15 minute break. OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #149

MLK wasn't stripped naked and held in isolation. whttevrr Jul 2013 #101

"whistle blower protections" marions ghost Jul 2013 #103

"...that hypothetical doesn't change the fact that leaking classified information is a crime, but dflprincess Jul 2013 #187

With Obama in office, yes it would still be wrong AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #66

cali, that is an excellent question within your post. kentuck Jul 2013 #73

kentuck, if you'd like to pose it as a stand alone, feel free cali Jul 2013 #86

That's not even close. cheapdate Jul 2013 #186

It's not that this law is immoral hootinholler Jul 2013 #80

What "pretzel?" Slavery was "legal" - the Inquisition was "legal" bread_and_roses Jul 2013 #89

exactly marions ghost Jul 2013 #104

nailed it. heaven05 Jul 2013 #140

The "LAW" is a concept BrainDrain Jul 2013 #90

Well Said fasttense Jul 2013 #92

Laws are better than a dictator's edicts, but that doesn't mean that they are never flawed either... cascadiance Jul 2013 #143

Exactly, leaking the Pentagon papers illegal... allin99 Jul 2013 #102

Upton Sinclair has a quotation related to this topic.... xocet Jul 2013 #131

Politics among nations: The struggle for power and peace OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #148

Here's a somewhat interesting and fairly recent article about the differences cali Jul 2013 #45

Good article. I like this line: marions ghost Jul 2013 #107

I'm glad. That is a great take-away and so true cali Jul 2013 #117

It's a commonly held fallacy & marions ghost Jul 2013 #120

As noted earlier, this "discussion" (law/morality) would make a great OP in and of itself. chimpymustgo Jul 2013 #155

Slavery used to be legal too... Was it "right" because it was legal then? cascadiance Jul 2013 #74

Escaped slaves were in the wrong for fleeing to the North. Maedhros Jul 2013 #147

They obviously weren't True American Patriots (tm) or they would have turned themslves in! idwiyo Jul 2013 #178

Would you be making the same argument if Bush were still president? flpoljunkie Jul 2013 #85

She had a very different opinion when Bush was President LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #106

Bullshit. ProSense Jul 2013 #109

As I've said before LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #121

Living Colour explained opinion changes like that rather nicely: friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #137

Your own post confirms it's true. Very disingenuous of you to claim otherwise. idwiyo Jul 2013 #179

Oh Snap! whttevrr Jul 2013 #111

"Bush committed crimes by illegal spying on Americans" she said marions ghost Jul 2013 #113

Uh, like Mr Elsberg is stating, there ws a time when the system was not so damn truedelphi Jul 2013 #160

Scary, isn't it? n/t markpkessinger Jul 2013 #19

It really is. Nt Zorra Jul 2013 #51

I believe what the NSA has been doing is unethical/immoral . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #23

What the hell does that have to do with the law on leaking classified information? n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #24

Which word did you not understand? markpkessinger Jul 2013 #38

+1. this is basic stuff but you explained it well and clearly. cali Jul 2013 #46

+2 idwiyo Jul 2013 #68

+3 Enthusiast Jul 2013 #75

+4 leftstreet Jul 2013 #108

+5 marions ghost Jul 2013 #116

+6 snagglepuss Jul 2013 #169

+7 christx30 Jul 2013 #173

+8 idwiyo Jul 2013 #181

So I gather you think Ellsberg should have gone to prison . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #42

Snowden ProSense Jul 2013 #52

Those other whistleblowers did not face a climate . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #53

What the hell are you talking about? n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #55

Is this how you got 101K posts? whttevrr Jul 2013 #105

Well, ProSense Jul 2013 #110

Probably not... whttevrr Jul 2013 #115

Yeah, I doubt it too. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #118

you heaven05 Jul 2013 #141

and look what happened to Thomas Drake cali Jul 2013 #93

It really pisses you of that Ellsberg supports Snowden :) idwiyo Jul 2013 #180

They've made it illegal to expose unconstitutional actions by classifying it. dkf Jul 2013 #26

So you agree that leaking classified information is a crime? n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #32

A lesser crime than subverting the constitution which I think all branches are guilty of. dkf Jul 2013 #40

+++ marions ghost Jul 2013 #119

Well said. snagglepuss Jul 2013 #170

When entire purpose of the legislation is to protect a crime, it's not a law, it's fraud. idwiyo Jul 2013 #183

No, it's still law in that case Recursion Jul 2013 #189

That is an authoritarian mindset. HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #56

Not if the power to classify is exercised in an abitrary and overly inclusive way. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #63

Details WovenGems Jul 2013 #88

Thanks. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #62

Jimmy Carter also said other countries have the (sovereign) right to give haven to Snowden deurbano Jul 2013 #57

I don't think anybody has quetioned that right Recursion Jul 2013 #190

The law that allows a small clique to decide to classify any information they wish such as JDPriestly Jul 2013 #61

Actually it is illegal to classify something in order to cover a crime hootinholler Jul 2013 #81

They are the law nineteen50 Jul 2013 #95

Under the Constitution, the legislative branch has nearly all, almost all of the authority JDPriestly Jul 2013 #161

the only branch of government legislating today is the nineteen50 Jul 2013 #162

Karl Rove (Neo-con) said in 2008 to Ron Suskind nineteen50 Jul 2013 #94

Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman broke the law, stole something, and ran away. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #14

Yes, Edward Snowden is like Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman ProSense Jul 2013 #15

We finally agree on something. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #16

I wouldn't make such despicable comparisons. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #20

Of course you wouldn't. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #58

The point others are trying to get through to you... Scootaloo Jul 2013 #67

PLUS ONE! nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #76

Excellent analogy usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #132

you assume that Snowden fled because he broke the law. grasswire Jul 2013 #27

That is it in a nut shell. RC Jul 2013 #136

I like this sentence. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #60

Now you're getting to the heart of the matter. LuvNewcastle Jul 2013 #128

Breaking a law to do the right thing, means 'doing nothing wrong'. Not only did he do sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #99

"enemies both foreign and domestic" marions ghost Jul 2013 #123

No looking forward when it comes to Snowden. OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #146

Bang on. snagglepuss Jul 2013 #172

Of course you guys do. Question is, do you think all Americans should be treated as suspects? grahamhgreen Jul 2013 #153

We must have hope that we can save our democracy. But we first have to fight the deniers rhett o rick Jul 2013 #4

Always remember the NDAA think Jul 2013 #5

In other news, the Sun came up this morning. Same expected tomorrow nt friendlyFRIEND Jul 2013 #6

It would be much cheaper for the US if he never re-entered the US. It would save the cost of a Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #7

Would we flip out about a Soviet who fled to tell the world their secrets? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #12

Would ProSense Jul 2013 #13

See? This is what happens when the world is run by people who don't take any of this seriously... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #22

Of Course Not RobinA Jul 2013 #130

BTW: The Soviet Union was NEVER "fascist". Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #134

People use the term "fascism" Maedhros Jul 2013 #151

It is specific to the right wing despite efforts by the right to muddy things. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #158

I believe so as well. [n/t] Maedhros Jul 2013 #164

It's not a question of "Belief".... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #165

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #21

Thank you for your bloviated opinion think Jul 2013 #25

Ellsberg worked for the Rand Corporation in the 1960s. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #29

yep and he blew the whistle too! think Jul 2013 #35

I think he thought he wouldn't need th sarc tag. cali Jul 2013 #31

Wow! You really ARE major hogwash. SaveOurDemocracy Jul 2013 #30

sarasm, my friend, or I'll eat my straw hat. cali Jul 2013 #34

I certainly hope so.nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #36

I hope you know which fork to use for that kenny blankenship Jul 2013 #41

yeah, I see that. I was as wrong as wrong can be. His posts are shameful and disgusting. cali Jul 2013 #114

Possible, not real familiar with that poster. SaveOurDemocracy Jul 2013 #49

Ellsberg is a piece of white trash!! Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #37

THANKS!!! sibelian Jul 2013 #124

what???? heaven05 Jul 2013 #142

This message was self-deleted by its author Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #33

Ellsberg was right then, and he's right now. mbperrin Jul 2013 #39

This message was self-deleted by its author LumosMaxima Jul 2013 #43

Snowden's actions will likely unleash an even more draconian Patriot Act. SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #44

Translation: AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #65

The "United" States doesn't exist. SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #152

"We" didn't turn on ourselves. The right wing turned on us AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #157

Like the climate, we're hanging by a thread SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #166

didn't obama just sign that executive order? HiPointDem Jul 2013 #71

K&R DeSwiss Jul 2013 #48

That's what it boils down to. Quantess Jul 2013 #70

Yep, a sweater would seal it. DeSwiss Jul 2013 #125

So succinct and oh so true Oilwellian Jul 2013 #96

De nada. DeSwiss Jul 2013 #126

Thank you Catherina. Splendid. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #59

Of course he did AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #64

Did I just see someone implying that Ellsberg should have gone to jail? Democracyinkind Jul 2013 #69

The messenger mimi85 Jul 2013 #72

Michael Jackson was far worse Fumesucker Jul 2013 #79

Something wrong with your trash thread, ignore button or hide by keyword? n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #98

IOW Please remove this topic from my beautiful mind marions ghost Jul 2013 #127

That's me in the wig! sibelian Jul 2013 #145

LOL I think I can see you...I'm up here... marions ghost Jul 2013 #150

Someone's turned my first acid trip into a dirigible.... sibelian Jul 2013 #163

Ellsberg, Plame and WIlson, so many others burnodo Jul 2013 #77

du rec. xchrom Jul 2013 #78

Yet he conveniently neglects to mention giving classified info to China. randome Jul 2013 #82

Trivial. Those who shipped so much of our manufacturing base to China are the real traitors eridani Jul 2013 #185

If he had stayed in the country... kentuck Jul 2013 #91

"Snowden believes that he has done nothing wrong. I agree wholeheartedly" allin99 Jul 2013 #97

Josh Marshall: Kinda Curious What That Means (Ellsberg's claim) ProSense Jul 2013 #112

It means you're going to have to try harder to make the B-List, Josh. Octafish Jul 2013 #154

Yes he did make the right call. Autumn Jul 2013 #122

"spark a movement to rescue our democracy" polichick Jul 2013 #133

Catherina, having read top to bottom, I agree with you and those who saidsimplesimon Jul 2013 #135

+1000 heaven05 Jul 2013 #144

It's just disgraceful how their concerns are treated. Worse than I even thought Catherina Jul 2013 #175

K&R felix_numinous Jul 2013 #138

Thank you once again, Mr Ellsberg. truedelphi Jul 2013 #156

Ellsberg was a hero until now LittleBlue Jul 2013 #159

It surely seems like a different country. Today the cacophony is more akin to "America, America, God indepat Jul 2013 #167

Yes, but imo fleeing to Moscow and Beijing was his two biggest mistakes. Rex Jul 2013 #168

Beijing? deurbano Jul 2013 #176

As opposed to staying here where he would have been locked up in solitary Catherina Jul 2013 #177

It's time for an "Underground Railroad" for whistleblowers... ReRe Jul 2013 #188

Thank You For Your Continued Efforts Informing The DU Community cantbeserious Jul 2013 #171

OMG libodem Jul 2013 #174

I've thought so too stupidicus Jul 2013 #182

I just saw that column. BlueCheese Jul 2013 #184