General Discussion

Towlie

(5,580 posts)

165. Edward Snowden: Hero of The People, Enemy of The State

Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:43 AM

Jul 2013

Would you condemn members of crime syndicates who break their oaths and reveal the crimes committed by those syndicates to the authorities? Would you side with the Mafia against a "stool pigeon"? Probably not, unless you were a big fan of The Sopranos.

The government has committed crimes against the people and Edward Snowden has exposed those crimes to us, in spite of any oath he may have recited to the criminals. How does that justify a completely opposite moral standard than the one you would ordinarily apply?

Another way to put things in perspective when your moral compass gets confused is to consider your feelings about a work of fiction. Think about the fictional movie plot of Clear and Present Danger. If you saw it, did you condemn Jack Ryan (Harrison Ford) for blowing the whistle on the President's illegal activities against drug cartels in South America? I didn't, and I doubt very many others saw it that way either. Jack Ryan was clearly the good guy and the President was the bad guy.

Think about what Admiral Greer (James Earl Jones) says to Jack Ryan from his hospital bed:

You took an oath, if you recall, when you first came to work for me. And I don't mean to the National Security Advisor of the United States, I mean to his boss... and I don't mean the President. You gave your word to his boss: you gave your word to the people of the United States. Your word is who you are.

Snowden may be an enemy of the state but he's a hero of the people, and it's a very bad sign when the people and the state are on opposite sides.

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I COMPLETELY support Snowden. [View all] Bonobo Jul 2013 OP

one must fight an evil empire where one can according to ability eh? nt msongs Jul 2013 #1

There are so few. kentuck Jul 2013 #2

Of Course BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #41

He did the right thing, he will suffer for doing it. Autumn Jul 2013 #3

Unreservedly so. n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #4

I thought this wasn't about him? Recursion Jul 2013 #5

That game works both ways. Bonobo Jul 2013 #8

Fair enough. I can't say much about him because I'm only about 85% convinced he exists at this point Recursion Jul 2013 #10

I have no idea what that means (except literally) Bonobo Jul 2013 #12

I rate my confidence at about 85% that "Edward Snowden" is a real person Recursion Jul 2013 #14

I must admit. Bonobo Jul 2013 #17

The only footage of him is that produced video Recursion Jul 2013 #20

Creative marions ghost Jul 2013 #40

No, he had direct contact with a reporter from a Hong Kong newspaper, the South China totodeinhere Jul 2013 #54

Thank you. I didn't realize that interview was face to face Recursion Jul 2013 #56

He did a 'face to face' interview with a newspaper... Blanks Jul 2013 #158

Booz Allen Hamilton confirmed he worked for them; the US government put out arrest warrants muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #144

"But that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion of him." Cali_Democrat Jul 2013 #22

Shouted down? Bonobo Jul 2013 #24

I actually don't have a problem with a vigorous discussion about Snowden Cali_Democrat Jul 2013 #35

So let's agree that: Bonobo Jul 2013 #36

It's still not about him... kentuck Jul 2013 #52

Then you're completely opposed to the premise of the OP. baldguy Jul 2013 #81

But he finds him honorable because of what he did.... kentuck Jul 2013 #124

well said. nashville_brook Jul 2013 #231

The problem with Snowden is gholtron Jul 2013 #162

The problem with your reply is LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #205

You're right that I'm hung up on law. gholtron Jul 2013 #208

People do, citizens do LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #210

My morality may be different from yours gholtron Jul 2013 #223

I'm hung up on law too, and I can't imagine how Progressive dog Jul 2013 #213

What court? LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #220

I didn't know Nelson Mandela lived in the USA and Progressive dog Jul 2013 #221

So its just Americans that run from the State that are cowards? LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #227

Whose laws did Snowden run from, South Africa? LOL Progressive dog Jul 2013 #230

Manning broke the law gholtron Jul 2013 #224

Things you can't unsee Half-Century Man Jul 2013 #44

Well, your first message reply out of the gate cheapdate Jul 2013 #86

That is NOT shouting someone down. Bonobo Jul 2013 #100

And you'd be an expert on shouting down wouldn't you? Blanks Jul 2013 #160

Blanks... Bonobo Jul 2013 #161

If Snowden had remained anonymous; it would have given you more time... Blanks Jul 2013 #175

Do you think an anonymous leaker would really have credibility? Bonobo Jul 2013 #178

An anonymous leaker would be trying to hide. Blanks Jul 2013 #191

You can't be shooting blanks LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #209

Lets see if I follow your exquisite reasoning... Blanks Jul 2013 #216

You know what they say about ASSUMING LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #222

I can't tell you what the motivations of MLK, Ghandi etc... Blanks Jul 2013 #232

It was accurate. Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #110

It was bullshit. Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #153

Screaming that it's BS doesn't make it any less accurate. Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #154

Screaming "it's accurate" doesn't make it so, either. Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #155

I am not the one with issues about whats being said Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #156

Ok... Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #157

he was not incorrect about direct access questionseverything Jul 2013 #233

.... questionseverything Jul 2013 #234

It wasn't, but the defenders of the Surveillance state made it about him, so now they sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #106

Of course you do RobertEarl Jul 2013 #6

I keep seeing Dorothy's dog pulling away the curtain of the Great and Powerful Oz. Gregorian Jul 2013 #7

AMERICA..LOVE IT OR.. Half-Century Man Jul 2013 #48

This message was self-deleted by its author Cali_Democrat Jul 2013 #9

I agree. Thank you for the post. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #11

Abso-freaking-lutely. hifiguy Jul 2013 #13

K&R MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #15

Did Snowden make the country safer with his revelations? Zorro Jul 2013 #16

Time will tell. Bonobo Jul 2013 #18

To answer that you first have to answer truebluegreen Jul 2013 #19

The issue doesn't have to be about safety. totodeinhere Jul 2013 #59

Hear, hear. woo me with science Jul 2013 #21

This will be a good bookmark for when Ed goes down. Get the whole Fan Club in one spot. MjolnirTime Jul 2013 #23

"Have at thee!" Bonobo Jul 2013 #26

That's what NSA says about DU. Octafish Jul 2013 #122

Can you imagine the CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #25

If the issue were regarding NSA surveillance... Bonobo Jul 2013 #28

I disagree. I don't think his motives are as honorable as you believe. CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #37

Oh please, ProSense Jul 2013 #27

"He invented most of his claims." Bonobo Jul 2013 #29

No, ProSense Jul 2013 #32

Well Snowden claims proof about direct access is coming Cali_Democrat Jul 2013 #38

He didn't invent any claims about Prism. Bonobo Jul 2013 #47

You ProSense Jul 2013 #51

Reductionism. Bonobo Jul 2013 #55

Can't answer the question, huh? n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #62

It was Bonobo Jul 2013 #63

You said: "If the Powerpoint was inaccurate about the 'direct' access, it was not his doing." ProSense Jul 2013 #69

OK then Bonobo Jul 2013 #74

It appears they use contractors for the direct access to servers. reusrename Jul 2013 #97

he was not wrong about direct access questionseverything Jul 2013 #236

"He invented most his claims", yet other countries are upset and Obama is willing to discuss....... Logical Jul 2013 #31

And ProSense Jul 2013 #34

Your attempts to derail with reductionistic, unanswerable, pointless questions. Bonobo Jul 2013 #65

LOL: "unanswerable" ProSense Jul 2013 #70

Link. Bonobo Jul 2013 #75

Maybe ProSense Jul 2013 #78

I'm the one laughing. Bonobo Jul 2013 #89

No, ProSense Jul 2013 #127

And his claims are supported by facts. Bonobo Jul 2013 #129

This corroborates Snowden's claim. OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #120

See Reply 120. nt OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #139

Yes, it is a sign of other things than opportunism. You think all other countries are craven muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #145

+1 Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #143

Come on.... micraphone Jul 2013 #45

Maybe, ProSense Jul 2013 #60

Definitely micraphone Jul 2013 #66

Except, apparently, for Venezuela's government (nt) Recursion Jul 2013 #107

If Venezuela will be his new home, he will be spied on every minute! Amonester Jul 2013 #138

# L0oniX Jul 2013 #235

Not me - the smell of Bush op has been mighty from day one. blm Jul 2013 #30

Finally, someone who gets it. Avalux Jul 2013 #33

Thank You For Sharing Your Thoughts cantbeserious Jul 2013 #39

No! These People are Hero's. sheshe2 Jul 2013 #42

So, tell me how Snowden could "run towards the danger" NineNightsHanging Jul 2013 #46

As Hunter Thompson said: Bonobo Jul 2013 #50

Yeah....saw that somewhere. sheshe2 Jul 2013 #71

I thought you sounded sleepy. Bonobo Jul 2013 #77

Leakers are leakers when they can prove with tangible evidence what they claim is true. Amonester Jul 2013 #58

Can you prove he sold the documents? If not, you can't even hold NineNightsHanging Jul 2013 #64

And I'm not self-proclaiming myself a leaker or whistleblower... Amonester Jul 2013 #68

No Tangible Evidence? NineNightsHanging Jul 2013 #76

That's not tangible evidence that the NSA *spies illegally* on US. Amonester Jul 2013 #87

Well it depends on your definition of legality NineNightsHanging Jul 2013 #92

The USSC disagrees with you. baldguy Jul 2013 #94

USSC has not ruled on FISA's use of the "special needs" provision to justify universal data mining NineNightsHanging Jul 2013 #98

"Right" & "legal" are two different things. You said that FISA is illegal when in fact it IS legal. baldguy Jul 2013 #105

I didnt say "FISA IS ILLEGAL" . reread what I actually said. NineNightsHanging Jul 2013 #111

You tied yourself up in semantic knots. baldguy Jul 2013 #112

Not if you can read English NineNightsHanging Jul 2013 #126

Furthermore, regarding legality---read this from breaking news NineNightsHanging Jul 2013 #199

Did you know about this? Yes or no? Bonobo Jul 2013 #79

Yes, and did you know about this? Yes or no? Amonester Jul 2013 #96

Absolutely. So we both knew about both things... Bonobo Jul 2013 #99

I think he is lying about the direct access because he can brag all he wants Amonester Jul 2013 #103

But the link I gave you SHOWS evidence of direct access. Bonobo Jul 2013 #104

That evidence was before the Senate vote Amonester Jul 2013 #113

So you think then that the access was cut off? Bonobo Jul 2013 #116

If there was nothing ridiculous about his claim of direct access Amonester Jul 2013 #119

Those are really speculative questions. Bonobo Jul 2013 #121

They might have direct access, but they now have very strict rules to abide to Amonester Jul 2013 #130

I strongly disagree with the assertion of "strict rules" Bonobo Jul 2013 #131

Out of over 300 million people, 1,800 requests Amonester Jul 2013 #135

Except they are 1,800 requests that cover tens of millions of people. Bonobo Jul 2013 #140

Take a look at this OP: Amonester Jul 2013 #141

Apples to Oranges sheshe2 Jul 2013 #67

Please--- "Standing like a man"? You're appealing to emotions NineNightsHanging Jul 2013 #202

Many people can be heroes simultaneously. Bonobo Jul 2013 #49

Are you kidding? Those people can go home at night. Snowden took a giant hit for his country. Gregorian Jul 2013 #88

I questioned his motives (who are his customers, who is paying his way, etc.) and was called a AlinPA Jul 2013 #43

Ed was a citizen, he knew what the price would be... BornLooser Jul 2013 #53

And I say that people that cannot Bonobo Jul 2013 #61

Read it again... kentuck Jul 2013 #72

My bad. I misread it. nt Bonobo Jul 2013 #73

Buzzinga!!! BornLooser Jul 2013 #148

Of course you do. BornLooser Jul 2013 #147

I am going to bookmark this. kentuck Jul 2013 #57

I support what he did. Apophis Jul 2013 #80

Then, let me tell you about this bridge I have for sale... baldguy Jul 2013 #82

Great joke. Bonobo Jul 2013 #83

Not nearly as good as the joke in the OP. baldguy Jul 2013 #84

You're about as fresh as Milton Berle. nt Bonobo Jul 2013 #91

Eddie certainly needs all the love he can get railsback Jul 2013 #85

He did a very brave thing, no doubt. 99Forever Jul 2013 #90

Grounding/Searching Morales plane smelled very Bush Admin too Hydra Jul 2013 #115

I am grateful for the truths he has exposed marions ghost Jul 2013 #93

good point..heroic action of civil disobedience..and great op, i feel the same way xiamiam Jul 2013 #114

thanks marions ghost Jul 2013 #164

At the VERY VERY LEAST he has forced a discussion on an issue that is central to our ability to Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #95

^^^^this^^^^ ...that's what matters. L0oniX Jul 2013 #181

I am COMPLETELY bored with this whole topic. classof56 Jul 2013 #101

Your boredom is precisely what some people want. Bonobo Jul 2013 #102

i have to agree with you... madrchsod Jul 2013 #136

I am close to 60 and I am finding it absolutely fascinating. nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #197

I think Edward Snowden has been extremely brave - if everything we Swagman Jul 2013 #108

yep! wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #109

Agreed G_j Jul 2013 #117

Ditto! DesertDiamond Jul 2013 #118

I agree, Bonobo. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #123

Snowden stands for what the country was built on. Octafish Jul 2013 #125

Face it,...some people are slathering over Snowden... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #128

I don't have any idea what that post is meant to mean. Bonobo Jul 2013 #132

A lot of Liberals are DESPERATE for a hero,...but they're also fickle.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #137

Actually, Their Desperate for Anyone They Think Is Going To Destroy Obama Skraxx Jul 2013 #170

Naw,...Obama was a fling for them but they don't want to destroy him.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #174

that's why i voted for him again in 2012.. frylock Jul 2013 #179

Sure You Did! Skraxx Jul 2013 #183

yeh, i'm lying.. frylock Jul 2013 #186

I Love Pics! Please Share! Skraxx Jul 2013 #187

here's your picture.. frylock Jul 2013 #188

That's You? You're Cool! Skraxx Jul 2013 #189

Lot's of people agree. He should be pardoned limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #133

K&R midnight Jul 2013 #134

knr Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #142

And I do not. stlsaxman Jul 2013 #146

Martin Luther King, Jr. is a hero. As are Rosa Parks and Edward R. Murrow... VOX Jul 2013 #149

Kicked & Recommended In_The_Wind Jul 2013 #150

Of course you do. great white snark Jul 2013 #151

I think he's paranoid, like many teabaggers BeyondGeography Jul 2013 #152

Kicked and Recommended! nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #159

knr Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #163

Edward Snowden: Hero of The People, Enemy of The State Towlie Jul 2013 #165

totally off base think_critically Jul 2013 #166

Kick Scuba Jul 2013 #167

A-Fucking-Men! Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #168

LOL! Oh, He's So Dreamy! Skraxx Jul 2013 #169

Boy you got me! Bonobo Jul 2013 #171

No! I Get It! He's Superman and Batman All Rolled Into One! Skraxx Jul 2013 #182

No you were right the first time with your homophobic post Bonobo Jul 2013 #184

LOL! You Think He's Dreamy Too? Skraxx Jul 2013 #185

How could I possibly deny it? Bonobo Jul 2013 #190

wouldn't that make you a cheerleading Snowdenobot? Whisp Jul 2013 #172

Call me whatever you want. nt Bonobo Jul 2013 #173

Well, I sympathize and ever agree with him... Deep13 Jul 2013 #176

How do you know he didn't intentionally lie? Sheepshank Jul 2013 #177

There is ample reason to believe Snowden did not lie. Maedhros Jul 2013 #192

I guess you are arguing some points...NSA collection of info isn't in question Sheepshank Jul 2013 #204

Snowden may have misinterpreted or inaccurately related some information. Maedhros Jul 2013 #211

Inaccurately related some information = lied. Sheepshank Jul 2013 #214

Not necessarily. "Lie" speaks to motive, about which one can only speculate. Maedhros Jul 2013 #215

"Misspeak" refers to an accidental choice of words..also for which there is no evidence n/t Sheepshank Jul 2013 #217

Donate to wikileaks, since they're helping him... allin99 Jul 2013 #180

Enthusiastic K&R! I think Snowden is an American hero, a modern day Paul Revere quinnox Jul 2013 #193

I completely support Snowden coming back to the US to explain everything in a public and open.... marble falls Jul 2013 #194

So where do you send the checks? we can do it Jul 2013 #195

I completely think he is a coward baronjake Jul 2013 #196

No way to carry out the mission otherwise marions ghost Jul 2013 #218

You're right LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #219

A message ProSense Jul 2013 #198

Light needs to be shown on whatever big brother does that intrudes upon the liberties enumerated in indepat Jul 2013 #200

Basically apart from all the repug bs, he defended human dignity Mosaic Jul 2013 #201

But.. But.. He's a CHINESE SPY! SomethingFishy Jul 2013 #203

K&R: Well said! caseymoz Jul 2013 #206

Nope not at all.. I completely support no one.. period.. Peacetrain Jul 2013 #207

I COMPLETELY SUPPORT PRESIDENT OBAMA rury Jul 2013 #212

Dafuq I just read? NorthCarolina Jul 2013 #228

Excellent post NorthCarolina Jul 2013 #225

HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #226

Kick And Recommend cantbeserious Jul 2013 #229

K&R Thank you. snappyturtle Jul 2013 #237