General Discussion

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)

122. I'll repeat it: Trayvon Martin was MURDERED in *cold blood*!!

Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:29 AM

Jul 2013

From Day 1, Zimmerman has not shown any emotion. No remorse. In fact, he was quite proud of himself, having referred to the killing as "God's plan" to kill Trayvon. His brother and father showed no emotion, no sympathy for his family whatsoever. Instead, they appear on Faux News to give his side of events, totally hearsay, totally biased. It was not until Zimmerman was forced by his attorneys to make a statement to the parents apologizing for what happened. Other than that, this man sits in the court room, sometimes smiling. He's a murderer and I don't believe for one second that he didn't plan on shooting Trayvon with the effect of killing him.

I'll say it once more:

Zimmerman is a cold-blooded killer!

You can disagree and that's fine, but you'll never get me to change what I believe.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

295 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

ZIMMERMAN TRIAL: Day 11, Tuesday, July 9, 2013 [View all] GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 OP

Crime scene reconstruction expert up now. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #1

This man seems very nervous. madaboutharry Jul 2013 #2

Is his name Dexter? Myrina Jul 2013 #8

I don't know how the judge can let this in. There is no way to cross chelsea0011 Jul 2013 #11

The defense produced a cartoon showing Z's version? pokerfan Jul 2013 #16

We have already seen Zimmerman's videotaped explanation of what happened that night... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #133

This pathologist is a joke. Atman Jul 2013 #183

Your calling the world's most renowed pathologist premium Jul 2013 #186

I haven't testified yet. Atman Jul 2013 #189

He didn't help Drew Peterson all that much. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #201

Actually, the ME said he consulted it after the autopsy pintobean Jul 2013 #202

Point taken, premium Jul 2013 #208

Who? Mr. David Jul 2013 #234

Dr. De Maio, he wrote the book on modern pathology. nt. premium Jul 2013 #241

"Your calling the world's most renowed (sp) pathologist." DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #272

He is a world class expert. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #198

Lmao!!!!! darkangel218 Jul 2013 #211

I worry today may turn rather ugly. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #3

I suppose they want to argue that having certain content on your madaboutharry Jul 2013 #4

I hope the judge nips it in the bud before it even gets to a jury. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #5

Fish got a new trial because that kind of evidence was excluded. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #10

Except I don't know if there's a documented background of physical aggression on Trayvon's part. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #15

I was speaking mostly in the abstract. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #19

There are apparently texts from Trayvon talking about fights he had hack89 Jul 2013 #30

And Zman's history of violence would seem similarly relevant. So let's have at it. Hoyt Jul 2013 #40

You need to ask the prosecutors why they failed to enter it into evidence hack89 Jul 2013 #46

if they introduce the victims character for violence qazplm Jul 2013 #190

No they cannot. hack89 Jul 2013 #206

and of course, teenage boys never exagerate how hedgehog Jul 2013 #160

The prosecution will have an opportunity to impeach the evidence hack89 Jul 2013 #203

You can bet they do, premium Jul 2013 #212

can the prosecution call rebuttal witnesses to testify about Trayvon's character? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #289

if a black man was on trial for killing a white man alc Jul 2013 #126

Excellent post. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #135

KKK and Meth Just Saying Jul 2013 #178

But the victim IS being portrayed as the guilty party and many here on DU seem to agree with that. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #209

I agree with everything you just said Just Saying Jul 2013 #246

Think carefully about what you have said. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #254

Sorry but I'm not going to suppose anything. Just Saying Jul 2013 #283

Florida's self-defense laws are the same as all the states. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #284

Nope, never said that self-defense Just Saying Jul 2013 #285

Then why did you say this: GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #292

Not the same as saying no one should use self-defense. Just Saying Jul 2013 #294

Outside of DU, there are many white people who think Zimmerman is guilty. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #256

thank you! Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #291

would it be equally relevant for the prosecution to show that the shooter Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #290

Yes, and it should be brought out at trial. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #293

This is smear day for the defense. chelsea0011 Jul 2013 #9

O Mara lied about a cell phone video- that Trayvon's friend beat up a homeless man.... bettyellen Jul 2013 #6

Was that during the trial or outside the court? SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #205

to the press-during the trial- O Mara seems to be getting himself on TV every night.... bettyellen Jul 2013 #247

Yes, it is going to start getting really ugly. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #7

I am disheartened that the defense is about to start painting a picture of Trayvon Ninga Jul 2013 #12

That's all they've done since the beginning Nevernose Jul 2013 #13

Of course. But wearing down the jury with lots of anti-Trayvon flag waving - can have a Ninga Jul 2013 #14

Wouldn't any computer animation done before the trial be prone to "assume facts not in evidence"? KurtNYC Jul 2013 #17

This is a sneaky way of letting Zimmerman "testify" without having to take Ninga Jul 2013 #18

it also seems almost like a kind of hypnotism KurtNYC Jul 2013 #20

^^^this, exactly magical thyme Jul 2013 #25

I would think you are right. The cartoon was made before the trial and evidence. chelsea0011 Jul 2013 #21

Prosecution was so poor in cross yesterday. The first friend of Zimmerman who wrote the book KurtNYC Jul 2013 #23

Bernie the prosecutor is horrible at cross examination. woolldog Jul 2013 #67

Not too impressed with either side KurtNYC Jul 2013 #89

How is this "video" not hearsay? ellisonz Jul 2013 #22

It is heresay, but... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #31

Agree. ellisonz Jul 2013 #45

Not in "cold blood". GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #54

I'll repeat it: Trayvon Martin was MURDERED in *cold blood*!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #122

Those are after the fact emotions. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #129

Multiple witnesses who cannot fully corroborate Zimmerman's story and at least one (Good) Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #142

ALL the witness agree that they were in a fight. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #145

And Zimmerman's actions fit the dictionary's definition of a cold-blooded killer!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #193

If you are correct--and I don't believe you are--then why are they going for 2nd-degree murder? Common Sense Party Jul 2013 #259

It's simple: because Trayvon is dead. The best witness for the prosecution is DEAD... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #263

Are you surprised that the jury did not see the evidence the same way you did? Common Sense Party Jul 2013 #295

It is possible to be in a fight in cold blood. You depend on Z's version though so for you, impossib uppityperson Jul 2013 #151

Z's NEN phone call has emotional content. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #158

Don't you know that facts don't count, only emotions with some people? nt. premium Jul 2013 #164

It is possible to be emotionless in a fight. My apologies for adding in about Z as that confused my uppityperson Jul 2013 #166

is the jury having to sit through this cartoon maker? GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #24

Jury is not in the courtroom pokerfan Jul 2013 #26

What exactly is a "motion capture suit"? madaboutharry Jul 2013 #32

A suit that captures motion to a computer pokerfan Jul 2013 #51

it is a suit with reflectors on key points of body - all joints and head and limbs - worn to record bettyellen Jul 2013 #57

it's strictly for admissibility... magical thyme Jul 2013 #27

Eggggsactly pokerfan Jul 2013 #53

According to Twitter the jury is not present n/t Shrek Jul 2013 #28

Sadly an animation will allow the events to be sanitized by replacing the human element. Ninga Jul 2013 #29

That's because the only way Zim's fantastical tale madashelltoo Jul 2013 #34

I know. I am worried that the judge is going to rule and allow it.....which would be awful. Ninga Jul 2013 #36

she did *not* allow the trace thc to be entered. magical thyme Jul 2013 #38

I think Leatherman got that wrong in his blog, someone in the comments brought it up. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #47

According to CNN, premium Jul 2013 #52

That's not what I read. Ninga Jul 2013 #48

+1 KurtNYC Jul 2013 #80

I have never seen that, thank you uppityperson Jul 2013 #154

That is the best fight scene in a movie ever davidpdx Jul 2013 #288

The State of Florida wants Zimmerman found innocent katmondoo Jul 2013 #33

I think you might be right because then the police, etc. may possibly... Little Star Jul 2013 #102

Negligent hell, premium Jul 2013 #108

Can't say that I disagree with you because that's exactly how I feel. Little Star Jul 2013 #116

This is absurd.. Dwayne Hicks Jul 2013 #35

my bet says she'll deny it. magical thyme Jul 2013 #43

The prosecution overcharged Pennycat Jul 2013 #37

The lesser included charge of manslaughter is included avebury Jul 2013 #39

But the state didn't focus on culpable negligence Pennycat Jul 2013 #49

The cause of death isn't in dispute in this case. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #192

Unnn, the PA really came out during the rebuttal to defense montion to dismiss... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #44

Agreed! nt avebury Jul 2013 #50

You can consistently argue that Zimmerman acted both recklessly and with a depraved heart Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #61

Beyond a reasonable doubt? Pennycat Jul 2013 #72

...Z's actions of following someone with a loaded gun weren't illegal but against NWP procedures and uponit7771 Jul 2013 #79

reasonable doubt is not the same as a vague doubt Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #111

Reckless seems spot on, even Z defenders see going against advice from the NWP and 911 as stupid... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #76

Gee do you think that the Judge is getting a tad bit avebury Jul 2013 #41

A video reenactment is nothing more than a hypothetical, and is hugely Ninga Jul 2013 #42

Nevermind, it was in regard to another witness darkangel218 Jul 2013 #55

I think that it has something to do with some Doctor that avebury Jul 2013 #58

Yup, i heard after i posted. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #62

It seems to me that a lot of these witness/evidence issues avebury Jul 2013 #56

Defense brings out Martin's shirt and puts display right in front of victim's family chelsea0011 Jul 2013 #59

I noticed that as well.. HeroInAHalfShell Jul 2013 #60

Already been done by the prosecution. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #63

But this is the defense doing it. They could have put it anywhere reasonable in the chelsea0011 Jul 2013 #65

What is wrong with that? hack89 Jul 2013 #68

Maybe they could lean it against Zimmerman's table since sensibilities don't matter chelsea0011 Jul 2013 #82

Where is it relative to the jury? nt hack89 Jul 2013 #90

Good point Stuckinthebush Jul 2013 #98

So? premium Jul 2013 #69

QUESTION: Does the PA have rebuttal to defense after defense rest? thx in advance uponit7771 Jul 2013 #64

Yes. madaboutharry Jul 2013 #66

thx! If the PA performs like they did during the defense request for dismissal I think views will... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #71

But limited in scope Pennycat Jul 2013 #91

Yes, and the defense gets to cross those rebuttal witness'. nt. premium Jul 2013 #74

This doctor speaks funny. almost creepy darkangel218 Jul 2013 #70

Really? Why? premium Jul 2013 #77

No. he sounds like a mad doctor. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #78

How? premium Jul 2013 #85

Im not accusing you of anything. This guy is creepy and thats all. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #94

If no one should care pintobean Jul 2013 #100

You're probably in the minority, premium Jul 2013 #106

Hes a paid witness charging $400 per hour. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #114

No. It is simply that you hate him because he is a defense witness. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #93

LMAO!! oh really?? darkangel218 Jul 2013 #96

You have labeled the doctor's accent as "creepy". GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #99

Im not biased based on the fact that hes a defense witness. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #101

You can't see your own bias. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #107

And you cant accept others opinions. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #109

I try to base my opinions on facts. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #115

So far you were wrong several times. You assume alot for someone claiming darkangel218 Jul 2013 #117

++++++++++++ uppityperson Jul 2013 #156

Have you noticed that Dr. Di Maio has said the same things I have? GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #167

neither you or the doctor know that for sure. noiretextatique Jul 2013 #262

Since he is a world famous forensic pathologist, I will believe him. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #269

he is a paid consultant noiretextatique Jul 2013 #278

Being a paid consultant does NOT mean he is lying. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #281

let's all try to get along Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #180

Hear, hear premium Jul 2013 #184

He has a New York accent. madaboutharry Jul 2013 #83

You shouldn't be on a jury cpwm17 Jul 2013 #144

So you have never thought that someone sounded creepy? never ever in your life? darkangel218 Jul 2013 #199

Your comment is totally irrelevant to the case cpwm17 Jul 2013 #233

The one displaying poor thinking skills is you. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #242

Insulting comments on people's looks is poor form cpwm17 Jul 2013 #257

Oh really, do you mind copying and pasting where i insulted the pathologist's looks?? darkangel218 Jul 2013 #258

And speaking about growing out of bad habits darkangel218 Jul 2013 #270

I thought I just heard on HLN that the Judge agreed to have the records that show TM had THC in his HeroInAHalfShell Jul 2013 #73

Yup its true. nt darkangel218 Jul 2013 #75

Yes, the defense has to make the case that there's chance MJ makes one aggresive... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #84

makes me eat food and watch tv.. HeroInAHalfShell Jul 2013 #104

they could say that it can make one paranoid -- isn't that true? KurtNYC Jul 2013 #119

Not in most cases uponit7771 Jul 2013 #139

paranoid only in that you might avoid doing things or become withdrawn bettyellen Jul 2013 #153

Not sure why they did that Shrek Jul 2013 #217

Dr. DiMaio, forensic pathologist, on the stand down. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #81

Ny accent mixed with TX accent makes him creepy. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #86

how is he supposed to help the defense? thx in advance uponit7771 Jul 2013 #87

I have no idea. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #95

Man if I were on the Jury I would have already avebury Jul 2013 #113

The same people who are suppling Zimmerman with his color coordinated outfits katmondoo Jul 2013 #125

So far, pretty good credentials. nt. premium Jul 2013 #92

Dr. Shiping Bao testified that he consulted Di Maio's book(s) pintobean Jul 2013 #121

...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... This blah blah sleep inducing. n/t Ninga Jul 2013 #88

From the Phil Spector trial. madaboutharry Jul 2013 #97

No relevance to the Zimmerman trial. Start you own thread, please. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #103

He is a typical defense witness and a "hired gun." madaboutharry Jul 2013 #110

That he testified in another trial has no relevance to this trial. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #120

You remind me of that clip from Seinfeld darkangel218 Jul 2013 #112

Oh shit!!! darkangel218 Jul 2013 #105

From @bobkealing: avebury Jul 2013 #118

LOL, hand raised here and I bet if the jury could, they, too, would... Spazito Jul 2013 #123

+1 uponit7771 Jul 2013 #140

From @bobkealing avebury Jul 2013 #124

I think the issue here is that Trayvon's shirt was not against his skin. Jim__ Jul 2013 #128

2 - 4 inches is still pretty darn close to me. avebury Jul 2013 #130

I expect that the prosecution will strongly challenge this guy's claims. Jim__ Jul 2013 #134

++ looking forward to the cross examination Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #191

Or GZ was pulling at his shirt- I thought the holes were lower on the shirt than his body- bettyellen Jul 2013 #131

I really expect the prosecution to challenge this guy's claims. Jim__ Jul 2013 #137

Good luck with that, premium Jul 2013 #141

the prosecution just has to get the doctor to validate other possible interpretations Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #197

They will have a very hard time of it. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #143

Yes. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #132

He likely was on top. KurtNYC Jul 2013 #146

Does the prosecution accept that? I haven't been listening to the whole trial. Jim__ Jul 2013 #149

I am unclear on what the prosecution believes the positions were KurtNYC Jul 2013 #181

it really doesn't contradict their case at all. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #204

They are taking a lot of time to establish that Dr. Di Maio as a world-class expert. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #127

Good or bad for Defense? avebury Jul 2013 #136

Don't know yet, premium Jul 2013 #147

If Trayvon died as quickly at this witness says he did, avebury Jul 2013 #152

"You say Trayvon Martin could have lived up to XXX minutes after he was shot... SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #232

Jurors seem captivated Shrek Jul 2013 #138

Doesn't the Doctor's testimony better avebury Jul 2013 #148

Looking at the facts yes...it was brought up yesterday that GZ was wearing a waste holster meaning uponit7771 Jul 2013 #159

In addition, this witness absolutley does not support avebury Jul 2013 #162

RIGHT! I've had a concusion in football, not a mark on my scalp but if I had NO helmet uponit7771 Jul 2013 #171

I think "that doesn't sound like me" was a preemptive dodge in case they could prove it wasn't him bettyellen Jul 2013 #249

Establishing Zimmerman's claim of Trayvon being able to still say "you got me"...which means what??? Ninga Jul 2013 #150

This testimony is gross katmondoo Jul 2013 #155

Psychologically, the expert's testimony might be a little counterproductive Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #163

Is ANYONE going to ask about the lack of DNA on TM hands after slamming GZ's bloody head? uponit7771 Jul 2013 #157

That is the prosecution's job. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #170

What is the likely hood someone would have a point blank shot to the heart during even a mild ... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #161

Doubt Zimmerman was aiming for the heart, Lurks Often Jul 2013 #165

...that would be a pretty lucky shot vs firing in TM's ribs or even stomach...he'd have to bring the uponit7771 Jul 2013 #168

Can you scream help with a mild concussion or "stunned"? jbond56 Jul 2013 #169

Yes, and I know this from personal experience. nt. premium Jul 2013 #175

Was your speech slured? jbond56 Jul 2013 #177

No, not really, premium Jul 2013 #179

Dang jbond56 Jul 2013 #187

I can only speak for myself, and this was over 40 years ago, premium Jul 2013 #200

you must have felt confused about whether you had just died or not Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #213

I was wondering what the hell had just hit me, premium Jul 2013 #220

An excellent question. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #176

Yes. I was in an car accident. Mild concussion. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #210

Screaming for help and at the same time, going for your gun? A concussion and bloodied nose? Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #218

Can't talk and walk at the same time? GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #225

You and I both know that it's actually a normal thing, premium Jul 2013 #230

Oh, yes Yo_Mama Jul 2013 #238

O.K., but if I'm trying to prove that I acted out of self defense, I would want to have some Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #265

Dr. Di Maio seems to disagree n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #207

How would injuries on the front of GZ's head be indicative of his head being bashed into concrete? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #172

Blow delivered to front, driving head into what is behind it. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #194

I would like to know if this witness looked avebury Jul 2013 #173

This Defense expert reminds me of Henry Lee who always testifies for the Defense katmondoo Jul 2013 #174

"Definite evidence of six impacts" Shrek Jul 2013 #182

This guy is destroying the ME the state called Pennycat Jul 2013 #185

State's ME referred to Defense ME's book. dkf Jul 2013 #188

Drew Peterson and Phil Spector Thank Dr. DiMaio for his exculpatory testimony DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #195

Other DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #196

Is Dr. DiMaio the Dr that was on the stand? I thought it was some other last name uponit7771 Jul 2013 #214

Totally irrelevant to this trial. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #215

They prefer Dr. Bao. dkf Jul 2013 #216

Quit calling other posters names. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #219

Point is, the guy is falliable. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #221

This testimony is devasting to the states case premium Jul 2013 #224

The OP is the one doing it. lol!!! darkangel218 Jul 2013 #228

So he's the only one doing it? premium Jul 2013 #237

So its Okay to call our own DUers names, as the OP is doing, because some posters commented darkangel218 Jul 2013 #245

Not as foolish as testifying that Lana Clarkson DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #267

WHAT IF TRAYVON MARTIN WAS SHOT IN THE ARM AND DID NOT DIE? wdkellysr Jul 2013 #222

I wish we were Pennycat Jul 2013 #226

I think it entirely possible that Trayvon MArtin would have been on trial for attacking Zimmerman! hedgehog Jul 2013 #235

Agreed JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #243

Z's father was not and is not a judge. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #248

Fair Enough JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #253

None of that has anything to do with the fact the Z's father is/was NOT a judge. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #282

True JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #286

My objection was to calling his father a judge, and nothing more. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #287

Zimmerman's father was never a judge, premium Jul 2013 #251

Zimmerman would be a hell of a lot happier now, Yo_Mama Jul 2013 #239

George knew you get in more trouble for pulling a weapon on someone when it's not needed than you do bettyellen Jul 2013 #252

I would like to hear the Defense's ME witness explain avebury Jul 2013 #223

Maybe the prosecution can bring it up Shrek Jul 2013 #227

I would like for that question to be asked too. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #229

STARTING NEW THREAD FOR THE AFTERNOON SESSION. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #236

And I would like to hear why--if Zimmerman's head was bashed at least six times-- Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #231

I expect that part to be ripped by the PA...Zimmerman is either the luckiest guy in the world that uponit7771 Jul 2013 #240

Yup. Eom uppityperson Jul 2013 #255

STARTING NEW THREAD FOR THE AFTERNOON SESSION. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #244

link? frylock Jul 2013 #266

I really hope that the PA who handled the avebury Jul 2013 #250

The prosecution is hammering this paid defense witness!!! darkangel218 Jul 2013 #260

I am truthfully and honestly trying to make sense of this case... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #261

i agree with you: his story just doesn't add up noiretextatique Jul 2013 #264

Yup. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #273

what's even more ridiculous noiretextatique Jul 2013 #280

Two common misconceptions Pennycat Jul 2013 #271

self-defense? noiretextatique Jul 2013 #279

So, let's see.... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #268

+1000 darkangel218 Jul 2013 #274

Bernie made a good analogy... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #275

Pro zimmies are desperate. They know zimmy is guilty but keep hopping he'll get aquitted darkangel218 Jul 2013 #276

Aw, yes. Here we have the "I have a black friend, therefore I can't be racist" witness... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #277