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yardwork

(69,139 posts)

34. Oh for fuck's sake.

Thu Jul 11, 2013, 09:02 PM

Jul 2013

I don't know what planet you live on, but if somebody was stalking me while holding a gun I would feel that they were being aggressive. I would be in fear for my life.

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What about Trayvon's right to stand his ground? Finally, CNN asks the right question. [View all] pnwmom Jul 2013 OP

did they say this on TV ? CNN is pro Zimmerman so i can't stand to watch them JI7 Jul 2013 #1

I agree. And I agree with the writer here -- if Trayvon had managed to grab Zimmerman's gun pnwmom Jul 2013 #2

I have to also agree that CNN's reporting is definitly biased. He won't be hired by CNN but FOX. olegramps Jul 2013 #217

Precisely the problem with this law. It only makes sense when there is a clear aggressor.. DCBob Jul 2013 #3

Zimmerman aggressively followed Martin around while he was carrying a gun, pnwmom Jul 2013 #4

Right, if anyone was an aggressor it would be Zimmerman.. DCBob Jul 2013 #5

following someone with a gun is not aggression Blue Bike Jul 2013 #16

The way Zimmerman did it sure the hell was. pnwmom Jul 2013 #17

Plus Zimmerman had a bullet in the gun cocked and already to go. lumpy Jul 2013 #32

What good is a gun without a bullet? Pelican Jul 2013 #62

Had it only gone off half cocked and hit himself in the balls . . . SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #144

Your attempt at humor failed Generic Brad Jul 2013 #33

Oh for fuck's sake. yardwork Jul 2013 #34

From the evidence shedevil69taz Jul 2013 #129

And whose word do we have for that gun being in the holster and not in his hand? proReality Jul 2013 #138

If there was evidence to refute that shedevil69taz Jul 2013 #139

It was brought up carjackistan Jul 2013 #196

In the opinion of someone who wasn't actually there shedevil69taz Jul 2013 #197

None of us were there. yardwork Jul 2013 #230

The concealed/unconcealed status of the gun is irrelevant. Maedhros Jul 2013 #179

Correct, and the "community watch" position holds no water. bluesbassman Jul 2013 #194

Once you are stalked by someone with a gun gollygee Jul 2013 #40

Calling MIRT... Agschmid Jul 2013 #47

Try this uppityperson Jul 2013 #49

LOL... Agschmid Jul 2013 #50

Well.............. JimboBillyBubbaBob Jul 2013 #133

I've been on DU pauljulian Jul 2013 #219

That is awesome! :) Lucinda Jul 2013 #55

! LIKE ! Vanje Jul 2013 #150

Why would you follow someone with a gun if they had not threatened you in any way? sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #53

only in the minds of gun humping racists it is not Skittles Jul 2013 #54

Holy shit. Are you fucking serious? Dawgs Jul 2013 #78

yes, because TM was black, it's not aggression Nanjing to Seoul Jul 2013 #81

After calling 911, it sure as hell is. Sivafae Jul 2013 #105

yes it is noiretextatique Jul 2013 #115

Well, if you walk up to me with your gun,... KansDem Jul 2013 #120

Intent. Ikonoklast Jul 2013 #146

Yep. Vanje Jul 2013 #151

Gun humping racist is no longer with us. Exit is that way...Buh bye. nt stevenleser Jul 2013 #153

idiot datasuspect Jul 2013 #159

you say that like Zimmerman simply happened to be walking behind Travyon while carrying a gun azurnoir Jul 2013 #161

follow someone you just called "these fucking punks always get away" after being told to stay tiredtoo Jul 2013 #180

What is it like on that planet of yours, care to come back down to reality Rex Jul 2013 #216

Zimmerman was not only following Trayvon, but confronting him. AngryOldDem Jul 2013 #234

My thoughts exactly. Apophis Jul 2013 #51

Right, "stand your ground" makes more sense in something like home invasion thesquanderer Jul 2013 #98

Exactly.. or a hold up or mugging. DCBob Jul 2013 #109

Been saying this. Just Saying Jul 2013 #6

Hardly old and fat starroute Jul 2013 #13

That's because they put him on the all Twinkie diet davidpdx Jul 2013 #76

Not to mention... Vasmosn Jul 2013 #239

About time! Trayvon was standing his ground, Cha Jul 2013 #7

I'm glad someone asked this question finally gollygee Jul 2013 #8

Bingo! Little Star Jul 2013 #9

Today in the Prosecution's closing argument the attorney did talk about Trayvon's fear. n/t Tx4obama Jul 2013 #10

Good. I wish he had addressed this issue, however. n/t pnwmom Jul 2013 #11

I said from the very beginning that Trayvon was standing his ground. Kahuna Jul 2013 #12

Maybe I'm harping on a minor point, but it annoys me.... Captain Stern Jul 2013 #14

You're right, but in a nit-picky kind of way. pnwmom Jul 2013 #15

I agree about the nitpickiness (is that a word?) Captain Stern Jul 2013 #18

He was asked by the dispatcher if he was following lenegal Jul 2013 #131

BOTH had every right to be where they were that night under Florida law Lurks Often Jul 2013 #19

The question raised in the OP is not who struck whom first, but who had the right to fear for his JDPriestly Jul 2013 #22

A manslaughter conviction could still get him 30 years. That would be fine with me. n/t pnwmom Jul 2013 #25

Sounds right for Zimmerman, but you never know what a jury will do. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #26

The judge said that the prosecution would give half of its closing argument Thursday, pnwmom Jul 2013 #46

Thanks for this information. I have purposely kept myself from watching the trial. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #56

I watched the first half of the closing argument on youtube. pnwmom Jul 2013 #69

Who struck whom first is the center of this case. Lurks Often Jul 2013 #73

why did he get out of the car? noiretextatique Jul 2013 #117

Again, under the law, Zimmerman Lurks Often Jul 2013 #119

every right, sure, but the dispatcher told him "we don't need you to do that" noiretextatique Jul 2013 #126

People are convicted Lurks Often Jul 2013 #141

If I was 17 in Trayvon Martin's position and some man in a truck first ogled me and then followed me JDPriestly Jul 2013 #195

And in the scenario you described in your first paragraph Lurks Often Jul 2013 #201

I am glad you are posting here. Vanje Jul 2013 #208

I think the jury will agree with you at least on murder 2. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #212

Your perspective is very similar to mine. klook Jul 2013 #227

The fact that the jury is composed of women may mean they see Trayvon Martin for the child he was. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #229

"Had Zimmerman not been carrying a gun, he probably would not have followed Trayvon. " Vanje Jul 2013 #209

Zimmerman was clearly menacing Trayvon. pnwmom Jul 2013 #28

Florida law does not agree with you. Lurks Often Jul 2013 #71

Would you say that if your child was being stalked by a large man with a gun? pnwmom Jul 2013 #72

I would expect my child to run and call 911, not call a friend Lurks Often Jul 2013 #74

Zimmerman's age and weight gave him a major advantage in addition to the gun. pnwmom Jul 2013 #75

I disagree about the age and weight Lurks Often Jul 2013 #77

Interesting that you make note of Zimmerman's weight but not the fact he had a gun. Dawgs Jul 2013 #82

And where is your proof that the gun came out at any point before Lurks Often Jul 2013 #88

It doesn't matter. None of this would have happened if Zimmerman hadn't recklessly pnwmom Jul 2013 #97

None of what you stated above is illegal under Florida law. Lurks Often Jul 2013 #101

If that's so clear cut then the judge would have dismissed the case pnwmom Jul 2013 #102

At what point has Zimmerman said that he got out to try to talk to Martin? nyquil_man Jul 2013 #163

We can argue all day as to Zimmerman's motive Lurks Often Jul 2013 #167

From Serino's interview with Zimmerman, tape 1, 2/29/12: nyquil_man Jul 2013 #171

That is not what I said Lurks Often Jul 2013 #181

I see. He also had a right to stand outside his truck and do an Irish jig. nyquil_man Jul 2013 #183

Because people keep saying that it was against the law for Zimmerman to get Lurks Often Jul 2013 #193

What does that have to do with him trying to talk to Martin? nyquil_man Jul 2013 #200

You seem to be missing the point I am trying to make Lurks Often Jul 2013 #202

No, I get your point. nyquil_man Jul 2013 #205

You're assuming Zimmerman hadn't revealed his gun. pnwmom Jul 2013 #95

We're both assuming Lurks Often Jul 2013 #96

Not really. The jury could very well decide that Zimmerman behaved pnwmom Jul 2013 #100

Some of the lawyers have stated that while a judge can issue a judgement of acquittal Lurks Often Jul 2013 #111

It's not common, but if the law were as clear cut as you've been claiming pnwmom Jul 2013 #122

and knowing what a paranoid gun humping coward he is Skittles Jul 2013 #242

there is no way in HELL that gutless coward approached Trayvon without his precious gun pulled Skittles Jul 2013 #241

Prove it n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #245

I would say the guy being stalked by a gun-toting vigilante was the one fighting for his life Skittles Jul 2013 #246

Like I thought, you have no proof n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #248

listen to this rant - ALL of it Skittles Jul 2013 #249

There is no proof, because if there was the prosecution would have used it n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #250

well I can see from the time lapse you didn't even bother Skittles Jul 2013 #251

No, I didn't watch because you have zero credibility n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #252

OMG LOL Skittles Jul 2013 #253

It is not as simple as John2 Jul 2013 #38

Jenteal came forward reluctantly. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #57

The burden of proof remains on the Prosecution Lurks Often Jul 2013 #70

Following someone is always a crime in Florida JoeyT Jul 2013 #135

A & B don't apply and C has not been proven Lurks Often Jul 2013 #142

The judge declined to instruct ctaylors6 Jul 2013 #182

Not exactly Lurks Often Jul 2013 #192

Thanks ctaylors6 Jul 2013 #204

You left out a part of the law onenote Jul 2013 #154

I think A may apply AmyStrange Jul 2013 #220

If lying indicates a lack of credibility, then we may only presume you find Zimmerman lacking credib LanternWaste Jul 2013 #203

I never read Zimmerman's statement about that night Lurks Often Jul 2013 #206

that one is a lost cause Skittles Jul 2013 #254

If we don't know who struck who first then how can Zimmerman claim self-defense? Dawgs Jul 2013 #80

Because it is the state's burden to prove that Z's actions were not self-defense hack89 Jul 2013 #84

Z has to prove something. You can't just kill people when no one is around and claim self-defense. Dawgs Jul 2013 #85

He has no burden of proof whatsoever - "innocent until proven guilty". hack89 Jul 2013 #87

But he is guilty. Dawgs Jul 2013 #107

Except that shooting someone is not always a crime hack89 Jul 2013 #113

Precisely. onenote Jul 2013 #147

I thought justifiable homicide had to be shown to be...justified...i.e. reasonable. jmg257 Jul 2013 #152

The law in Florida is crystal clear. onenote Jul 2013 #155

Thank you very much! nt jmg257 Jul 2013 #156

Z merely has to provide a prima facia case of self defense hack89 Jul 2013 #157

You don't see that too often because there is usually proof to the contrary joeglow3 Jul 2013 #89

No, the burden comes down to the Prosecution Lurks Often Jul 2013 #90

But it's not proven that Martin escalated the fight to that point. Dawgs Jul 2013 #108

Zimmerman assumed that Martin was a junky looking to break in to homes. olegramps Jul 2013 #94

The HOA already settled with Martin's parents Lurks Often Jul 2013 #99

They don't have to bring the suit under Floridia law. olegramps Jul 2013 #136

I'm curious how you reach that conclusion? n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #140

When are or were closing arguments? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #20

The prosecution did some today. I don't know about the defense. n/t pnwmom Jul 2013 #24

"An apparent stalker" burnodo Jul 2013 #21

The comments after the article!! YIKES!!!!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #23

It's like this after every. single. article. on the internet. Makes me furious. yardwork Jul 2013 #37

Convict the neighborhood threat !!!! Honor the 2nd, don't abuse it . orpupilofnature57 Jul 2013 #27

Of course Trayvon had the right to defend himself... ReRe Jul 2013 #29

Sorry, doesn't work that way Lithos Jul 2013 #30

Is the op suggesting we have the right to assault someone because we think they're following us? Hempologist Jul 2013 #31

No, you only have a right to attack gollygee Jul 2013 #35

You don't have the right to attack anyone who isn't trying to harm you. Hempologist Jul 2013 #44

This is false, we do know what happened...zimmerman, afraid of TM, got out of his car and chased him uponit7771 Jul 2013 #59

First, that makes absolutely no sense. Hempologist Jul 2013 #91

None of Zimmerman's many stories have made sense. IdaBriggs Jul 2013 #104

I can see both sides and funny how you assume I'm white because of that. Hempologist Jul 2013 #114

again, a boy is dead. zimmerman's reckless behavior caused his death noiretextatique Jul 2013 #130

Carrying a gun is not illegal nor is following someone in public. Hempologist Jul 2013 #137

no...because that narrative is self-serving and racist noiretextatique Jul 2013 #143

Personal insults and accusations of racism are the last refuge for who can't form rational arguments Hempologist Jul 2013 #148

i said his narrative is classic racism. noiretextatique Jul 2013 #189

In your opinion the prosocution failed. Others feel they succeeded. That's that. TeamPooka Jul 2013 #235

Excuse me? First of all, I have NEVER "assumed you are white" -- WTF? IdaBriggs Jul 2013 #149

"Was he, Martin, justified in standing his ground and defending himself when this stranger, an..." uppityperson Jul 2013 #36

How about if they display a gun while walking behind us or making serious threats? lumpy Jul 2013 #41

So you won't be standing your ground I take it? Agschmid Jul 2013 #48

Too bad none of Ted Bundy's victims didn't attack him. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #66

Children are taught that if an adult is trying to abduct them that they should hit and kick pnwmom Jul 2013 #67

According to your logic, then everything women are taught to defend themselves sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #86

Or maybe she kneed some poor sap she thought was following her. Hempologist Jul 2013 #106

Or maybe not, and she would get raped. Dawgs Jul 2013 #110

Well you better be sure or you just committed assault. Hempologist Jul 2013 #125

What would it matter, the woman would be dead. sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #214

actually ctaylors6 Jul 2013 #215

that boy is DEAD...did his follower have the right to shoot and kill him? noiretextatique Jul 2013 #128

If Trayvon attacked him then yes. Hempologist Jul 2013 #132

that's not what the law says noiretextatique Jul 2013 #134

Of course the law acknowledges our right to defend ourselves from violence Hempologist Jul 2013 #145

They could both have been acting in justifiable self-defense. cigsandcoffee Jul 2013 #39

Not unless John2 Jul 2013 #43

Zimmerman recklessly put his life at risk, if it was ever at risk pnwmom Jul 2013 #45

that just doesn't make any sense...zimmerman's "fear claim" noiretextatique Jul 2013 #121

I completely agree neohippie Jul 2013 #42

Good points, well stated Vanje Jul 2013 #165

J. Cheney Mason zeeland Jul 2013 #52

Kicked and Recommended! Enthusiast Jul 2013 #58

I don't think so. Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #60

You would be wrong. Enthusiast Jul 2013 #61

we may never Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #63

Are you seriously saying that Zimmerman would have been stalking a white teen? pnwmom Jul 2013 #68

zimmerman apologists noiretextatique Jul 2013 #124

+1 Vanje Jul 2013 #162

well, you seem well informed...NOT noiretextatique Jul 2013 #123

+1 Vanje Jul 2013 #166

I been saying this all along! Has the B Calm Jul 2013 #64

I highly suspect that if there was a "You're gonna die tonight, motherfucker" Myrina Jul 2013 #79

Because Z's basic story has been allowed to stand as the truth, with only some "discrepancies" WinkyDink Jul 2013 #65

best answer in this thread noiretextatique Jul 2013 #127

Thank you! WinkyDink Jul 2013 #218

because martin is black and black people are scary. don't you know that yet? Nanjing to Seoul Jul 2013 #83

What if Zimmerman had the misfortune of following a black... usaf-vet Jul 2013 #92

yes...the black would have been arrested that night, and the police would have actually investigated noiretextatique Jul 2013 #118

I'll bet a million dollars secondvariety Jul 2013 #93

It's based on guns. Quantess Jul 2013 #103

This very same issued was being LukeFL Jul 2013 #112

Or Trayvon's right to walk down the street? TBF Jul 2013 #116

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2013 #158

How about this: Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #170

I disagree neohippie Jul 2013 #177

There is evidence of self-defense. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #213

REPEATEDLY following someone in FL is a criminal act. Even Z indicated he REPEATEDLY followed TM and uponit7771 Jul 2013 #186

Florida stalking law onenote Jul 2013 #211

Under Florida law, Trayvon only had the right to "stand his ground" onenote Jul 2013 #160

Who'd a thunk it libodem Jul 2013 #164

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2013 #168

You're an attorney? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #172

The state can make its case by persuading the jury not to believe Zimmerman onenote Jul 2013 #174

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2013 #176

...unnn, REPEATED following of a person is stalking. I don't think Z had the right to "STALK" TM uponit7771 Jul 2013 #185

Thank you. ( n/t) klook Jul 2013 #228

You have to ask one very simple question. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #169

Except such an instruction to the jury would result in any conviction being reversed onenote Jul 2013 #173

The progression of events starts with Zimmerman Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #175

As a factual matter, you are right. If Zimmerman stays in the car, Trayvon is alive today. onenote Jul 2013 #178

I understand that you are not defending Zimmerman. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #184

If the law were so clear on this matter the judge would have dismissed the charges pnwmom Jul 2013 #188

I don't disagree. onenote Jul 2013 #190

Suppose Trayvon were a 17 year old female. pnwmom Jul 2013 #191

I believe Zimmerman pulled a gun and tried to detain Travyon Skittles Jul 2013 #240

Also ctaylors6 Jul 2013 #210

AAAAGH! Using present verb tense when it doesn't belong is the province of stupid sportscasters! WinkyDink Jul 2013 #231

Self-defense doesn't apply in situations where the person claiming it PROVOKED an attack. pnwmom Jul 2013 #187

Do you have case law to support that theory? onenote Jul 2013 #198

I don't think the jurors have to rely on case law. Just common sense. pnwmom Jul 2013 #199

Note that the judge did not instruct the jurors regarding the provocation exception onenote Jul 2013 #207

The judge instructs ctaylors6 Jul 2013 #224

Does SYG allow you to kill a cop? AmyStrange Jul 2013 #221

No, that is explicitly not allowed. ManiacJoe Jul 2013 #244

Murder is murder. nt Jamaal510 Jul 2013 #222

I made this point over a year ago krispos42 Jul 2013 #223

The problem is that there is no way to know exactly what Martin felt or onenote Jul 2013 #233

didn't Jenteal's testimony tell us neohippie Jul 2013 #238

. blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #225

Had Martin been able to kill Zimmerman customerserviceguy Jul 2013 #226

Martin's parents appear to be well educated and middle class at least. maddiemom Jul 2013 #232

This is the NRA's dream verdict. No longer will we as citizens be able glinda Jul 2013 #236

why didn't it come up at the trial is the question. martin was the one being stalked. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #237

sadly, Martin was the one being tried instead of Zim Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #247

Clearly Martin had no right to stand his ground, even under threat of lethal force. Rex Jul 2013 #243

Not to be flippant about it, but stand your ground changes every time the last chelsea0011 Jul 2013 #255