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DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)

80. here you go: a tableau of Soviet genocide

Fri Jul 12, 2013, 05:51 PM

Jul 2013

Action: Famine/Starvation in the Ukraine:
Purpose: get rid of political enemies
Death toll: about 7,000,000.
Genocide rationale: deliberate and systematic extermination of a political/cultural group.

Action: Kulaks "to be liquidated as a class" (quote from J Stalin)
Purpose: collectivize farming, making villains out of the farmers.
Death toll: hard to tell, but the low estimate is 700,000. Many more than that died in the gulag system.
Genocide rationale: deliberate and systematic extermination of a cultural group.

Action: The Great Purge
Purpose: to weed out "bad elements" of the communist party.
Death toll: about 650,000.
Genocide rationale: this isn't genocide, since it was against the members of the selfsame party Stalin was in charge of.

The original hypothesis argued in this thread and in another was that the US was worse than the Soviet Union. Elsewhere in this thread, I have stated that the US killed more native Americans than Hitler killed people in the Holocaust. If you're hinging an argument about whether or not the USSR was/is "bad" on whether or not the death of millions is considered genocide or not, there's not much I can say that's going to help you. Sometimes, hundreds of thousands of people are violently snuffed out, and their deaths for one reason or another aren't classified as genocide. This in no way makes the perpetrators of the mass murder any less guilty, nor does it make the places where this happened any less horrible.

I will repeat, I hope that Snowden gets asylum. I appreciate the information he has given to all of us. But I refuse to rewrite recent history to make me feel better about Snowden's temporary host country.

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"US worse than the USSR"? American Amnesia of the worst sort [View all] Hekate Jul 2013 OP

Ask the Native Americans and African Slaves the same questions. We're immaculate. leveymg Jul 2013 #1

Are we worse than the USSR? Hekate Jul 2013 #2

Using unequal time frames doesn't really help your argument. dipsydoodle Jul 2013 #4

I agree, that allows anyone else to bring up slavery Rex Jul 2013 #8

Both in fact. dipsydoodle Jul 2013 #11

Or the internment of Japanese Americans Rex Jul 2013 #48

Yep, those were all horrible things. And the US is STILL not worse than the USSR. renie408 Jul 2013 #58

Never said it was, the OP decided to pick parts of USSR history as an example Rex Jul 2013 #61

I am saying that, as a whole, the US does not have the same history of human rights renie408 Jul 2013 #67

Really? Slavery? The forced relocation of Native Americans? Rex Jul 2013 #70

Seven million dead Ukrainians? renie408 Jul 2013 #74

So you want to keep with the binary thinking, fine. Rex Jul 2013 #75

Do you know what binary thinking is? Cause I don't think you are using that phrase correctly. renie408 Jul 2013 #83

Did you see this much-recced OP in GD Thursday night? Hekate Jul 2013 #165

Are you an American? Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #144

No. dipsydoodle Jul 2013 #173

And modern Russia is much better than the USSR? dbackjon Jul 2013 #134

We have more persons incarcerated. nm rhett o rick Jul 2013 #18

And many of the incarcerated are in work prisons iemitsu Jul 2013 #128

Beyond better or worse, are we really that different? leveymg Jul 2013 #19

How many punk bands are in jail here for protesting against the President? renie408 Jul 2013 #76

We have genocides on our own hands too. ananda Jul 2013 #3

IMHO you have hit the nail on the head. I have read many replies here. snappyturtle Jul 2013 #125

You are right. We are worse because we are more hypocritical and blind to our own crimes leveymg Jul 2013 #131

Hogwash dbackjon Jul 2013 #135

That does not address the issue. leveymg Jul 2013 #136

What? Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #146

Lol dbackjon Jul 2013 #155

!!!! dionysus Jul 2013 #196

Well said. polichick Jul 2013 #151

Lots of people who rooted for the USSR during the cold war are still bitter. nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #5

Residual self-hatred, perhaps? randome Jul 2013 #7

Snowden and Assange aren't voices of a generation. geek tragedy Jul 2013 #10

Well, they have an 'entourage' called Wikileaks but yes, you're probably right. randome Jul 2013 #14

self-promoters who take aim at low hanging fruit. geek tragedy Jul 2013 #15

That's the thing, it will never happen davidpdx Jul 2013 #181

You mean "the United States of Stasi"? Cha Jul 2013 #174

How is that statement you just made not Red Baiting? leveymg Jul 2013 #139

This isn't an NSA thread. nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #141

Where else could this OP and thread have come from? leveymg Jul 2013 #148

Where could the topic have come from? See link here Hekate Jul 2013 #168

Seems the original for this was from Ann Coulter's "Treason," page 16. Pholus Jul 2013 #215

We are not nearly as bad as the USSR. Not even close. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #6

The USSR was fighting a civil war (funded from the west) nearly right up to ww2. Post WW2 HiPointDem Jul 2013 #24

In upwards of 60 million people died under the Soviet regime from 1917 to 1959. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #35

From 1917 to 1922 a horrible Civil War took place ... Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #36

Both sides summarily executed hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #44

Both sides? Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #54

wtf does 'died under the soviet regime' even mean? all deaths? The first statement referred HiPointDem Jul 2013 #39

Here you go... Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #56

1. that doesn't answer my request. 2. rudy rummel = not a scholar, but a propagandist. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #64

Rummel's calculations are backed up by many other sources. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #69

no. they are 'backed up' by a limited number of sources which all feed on each other. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #77

Is Solzhenitsyn a right-wing propagandist? Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #81

well, he's no leftist. his orientation was religious & nationalist. but let's stick with the topic HiPointDem Jul 2013 #84

You're actually right. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #115

does that mean your claim that "he USSR was a death machine post WWII for many decades" HiPointDem Jul 2013 #133

Uh no. Because population growth has little or nothing to do with killings. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #137

"a death machine" does, in fact, imply decreasing population. "A problem with killings" does not. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #145

No, a death machine implies that it is a machine that produces death. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #153

When you call the post-war USSR a death machine for several decades, which you did, HiPointDem Jul 2013 #154

Are you waxing philosophical or attempting to argue the literal meaning of "death machine?" Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #156

If a country is a death machine, that is not a limited claim. It's a generalized claim. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #157

I actually never claimed that there was a genocide after WWII. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #159

Yeah, Transition. LOL. A 'teachable moment' too I suppose...eom Maximumnegro Jul 2013 #97

Ain't American Amnesia grand? Hekate Jul 2013 #167

Take it from this Snowden supporter: Stalin most certainly carried out genocide in the USSR DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #57

Genocide = "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or HiPointDem Jul 2013 #59

yep. that's what genocide is. DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #60

you have not yet told me how that definition applies to your post. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #68

here you go: a tableau of Soviet genocide DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #80

no link. my comments in this thread have nothing to do with snowden. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #140

You don't care much about impartial scholarship DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #160

you haven't presented any impartial scholarship. impartial scholarship would mean using the same HiPointDem Jul 2013 #161

Remember what Barbie said when they gave her a voice: "Math is haaard." Hekate Jul 2013 #192

Stalin got away with a lot of it for two reasons... Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #62

He mostly let Molotov and Berea craft the orders, but he was definitley behind it. DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #71

Holodomor/Great Purge denial? That's a new one. (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2013 #100

There's no scholarly consensus about the extent and causes of the Holodomor, other than a famine leveymg Jul 2013 #143

I View It As A Perverse Sort Of 'We're Number One!' Cheerleading For The Ol' U. S. of A., Ma'am The Magistrate Jul 2013 #9

Certainly #1 in incarerations dipsydoodle Jul 2013 #20

We Are Number One In Best-Ness, Sir --- Let's See Them Rooskis Top That! The Magistrate Jul 2013 #22

That is because the US is a paragon of the inverted totalitarian system nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #27

I Did Not Say There Were Not Limits, Ma'am The Magistrate Jul 2013 #33

There are far more limits than you imagine nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #37

My Obliviousness And Ignorance Are Legend, Ma'am.... The Magistrate Jul 2013 #45

I bow to your legendary obliviousness and ignorance, comrade Hekate Jul 2013 #99

Just jumping in for a second here ConcernedCanuk Jul 2013 #113

My favorites are still the ones claiming North Korea's freer. Posteritatis Jul 2013 #102

Links please. truebluegreen Jul 2013 #184

You are ruining perfectly good faux outrage!!! JoePhilly Jul 2013 #12

This revisionism brings to mind Orwell's notes on Nationalism, specifically the negative nationalism stevenleser Jul 2013 #13

Wow, that's some interesting reading. randome Jul 2013 #16

I thought so when I first saw it too! I never forgot it! stevenleser Jul 2013 #21

a mirror to those who would have us believe that any faction backed by the US is 'right'. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #26

Eric Blair was far from the British Empire's biggest fan. baldguy Jul 2013 #114

nobody 'dismissed' anything. the fact is that the empire creates the frame. the frame sets up HiPointDem Jul 2013 #124

Thanks. Scurrilous Jul 2013 #28

Great post dbackjon Jul 2013 #138

I think DU includes too many people who never paid attention in history class. pnwmom Jul 2013 #17

And those who studied more history, perhaps, from other perspectives. leveymg Jul 2013 #25

Why did you assume I was talking about you? n/t pnwmom Jul 2013 #31

I am envious. You studied under Zinn nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #43

It was my undergrad major Hekate Jul 2013 #38

Yeah, all those books like . . . .. hmmm. Which books did we ban again? pnwmom Jul 2013 #40

You could not be that ignorant... nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #46

Sorry, but you can't be ignorant enough to think that random librarians pnwmom Jul 2013 #50

Dear where do you think those start? nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #55

So they had freedom of the press in the Soviet Union? pnwmom Jul 2013 #82

Early on...yes...from 1918 to about 1920-1 nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #85

Oh wow. For two whole years. They're just like us. pnwmom Jul 2013 #87

But you did not know that nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #92

They had freedom of the press for 2 fucking years in the 1910s and that means they're better? DevonRex Jul 2013 #162

nadin, nadin, nadin... Hekate Jul 2013 #170

Hekate did I say we are at USSR levels? nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #185

just as long as you don't call me "dear" Hekate Jul 2013 #188

Tell you what nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #189

Not a nationalist, just a citizen who thinks we still have a chance for redemption Hekate Jul 2013 #190

See you at next Saturdays's Potluck Iggy Dinner! zappaman Jul 2013 #201

I'll bring guacamole and tortilla chips Hekate Jul 2013 #204

Totally rude. Uncalled for. insulting. DevonRex Jul 2013 #163

My senior seminar professor was a specialist in Japanese-Russian history Hekate Jul 2013 #79

You know...not worst...but in some ways not better nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #23

Some people want the US to collapse. zappaman Jul 2013 #29

Sadly, whether we want it to or not, that is what's happening. Like the USSR, for largely the same leveymg Jul 2013 #32

It's rather like the people praying for the Apocalypse and the Rapture Hekate Jul 2013 #41

agreed. zappaman Jul 2013 #52

Nailed it. nt treestar Jul 2013 #199

Guess you haven't heard about the profiteeting U.S. prisons and its slave labor. nt valerief Jul 2013 #30

The comparison was made to the Soviet Union. Are we worse than the USSR? Hekate Jul 2013 #42

The USSR didn't have Jesus shoved down their throats like we do. nt valerief Jul 2013 #86

Oh, golly. I await the witch trials. And have you seen your neighbors in the stocks lately? Hekate Jul 2013 #93

Try to get an abortion in some states. nt valerief Jul 2013 #94

Try to get an abortion in the USSR, Hero Mother Hekate Jul 2013 #106

And that's the US in a nutshell. nt valerief Jul 2013 #112

They did not have freedom of religion. treestar Jul 2013 #200

But hey, the suppression of all religions means they didn't have Jesus shoved down their throats! Hekate Jul 2013 #207

And we don't have freedom from religion. nt valerief Jul 2013 #209

You can't have that treestar Jul 2013 #212

I should have freedom from it but it's in my pledge of allegiance and on my currency. valerief Jul 2013 #216

Are you required to attend church? Are you required to pray in government buildings and classrooms? Hekate Jul 2013 #217

We've got the largest prison system in the industrialized world. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #103

We don't have to be "as bad as" to point at something and say this is wrong. Agnosticsherbet Jul 2013 #34

Is it a policy to work them to death? "Gulag Archipelago" is eyewitness Hekate Jul 2013 #47

In most states now, it is the policy to work them for profit. Agnosticsherbet Jul 2013 #66

It's a terrible, terrible system. Change it. But the Soviets.... Hekate Jul 2013 #89

No. We just drive them crazy by holding them in solitary confinement for many years. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #108

+1. not just in absolute numbers, but also per capita. and do we work them? yes, we do, & HiPointDem Jul 2013 #49

I know there is no comparison, but I was watching a group of Walmart employees sitting together renie408 Jul 2013 #95

I have friends who recently emigrated from Krasnodar. OilemFirchen Jul 2013 #51

Oh, you'll only confuse them with facts Hekate Jul 2013 #171

It's a mixed bag, really DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #53

I know. Its very wearing. renie408 Jul 2013 #63

Could you please link me to a post in which someone said the US is worse than the USSR? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #110

Literal much? renie408 Jul 2013 #118

But no link to the post that set this OP off. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #126

Did you really think the OP was making it up? renie408 Jul 2013 #178

So you think professor woolin was crazy when he started nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #186

Blah blah blah renie408 Jul 2013 #197

And people who engage in personal attacks nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #198

What is the point in answering you? renie408 Jul 2013 #202

Yay more personal attack nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #203

So, tacking your personal attack to the end of your comment, like you did, makes it OK? renie408 Jul 2013 #205

Here you go. Skinner Jul 2013 #130

Thanks, Skinner renie408 Jul 2013 #177

Some may say that we are worse than the USSR, but . . . Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #218

If you want to talk numbers, there's no comparison. Octafish Jul 2013 #65

Did you just compare living in Detroit to being imprisoned in a Gulag? renie408 Jul 2013 #72

Yes. Octafish Jul 2013 #78

Ok, on that we can agree. renie408 Jul 2013 #88

Yes, and do we even know how many lives were lost in Central America with the U.S. propping up avaistheone1 Jul 2013 #98

William Blum has tried to make an accurate estimate... Octafish Jul 2013 #104

Excellent resource octafish. avaistheone1 Jul 2013 #107

Kick nt stevenleser Jul 2013 #73

It's setting itself up to be spectacularly bad. dairydog91 Jul 2013 #90

The panic is actually palpable. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2013 #91

You go ahead and palpate the panic Hekate Jul 2013 #169

Huh, tried that too. The hyperbole I got back was that I was somehow a "Randian." Pholus Jul 2013 #182

Yes, we are so noted for our intelligent discourse these days. Passion I understand.... Hekate Jul 2013 #187

I would not say we are worse than the USSR. That would be a gross exaggeration. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #96

As long as Taco Bell is open til 1am Maximumnegro Jul 2013 #101

True. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #117

All I can say to this post is...non sensical nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #206

The absense of interest in this discussion is important... Pholus Jul 2013 #183

I believe what happens here is our responsibility Herlong Jul 2013 #105

I hope you weighed in Hekate Jul 2013 #109

I think that is backwards. renie408 Jul 2013 #111

Pardon my obtuseness, but is this in reference to something someone HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #116

yes Hekate Jul 2013 #121

This message was self-deleted by its author HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #122

I've got way too many irons in the fire today. Apparently, I commented in that thread and HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #123

Just look who's the Russian Allies Today compare to the US allies, it tells a lot. Nt Sand Wind Jul 2013 #119

The state of the art of totalitarianism mikeypooh Jul 2013 #120

Thanks so much for your input. Those votes won't suppress themselves, you know. Hekate Jul 2013 #195

We don't want to get there. That's the thing. Cleita Jul 2013 #127

I surely do want this country to improve, Cleita, but spreading misinformation will not do it Hekate Jul 2013 #180

kick grantcart Jul 2013 #129

And just exactly who said the US is worse than the USSR? burnodo Jul 2013 #132

I sure didn't, and I've been exceptionally critical of the intelligence and military complex NuclearDem Jul 2013 #147

Here's your answer Hekate Jul 2013 #164

I see burnodo Jul 2013 #176

Likewise a lot of posters in this thread display blithering ignorance of historical facts... Hekate Jul 2013 #179

If the President of the United States were white, would we even be having this conversation?? Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #142

Yes, because his race has absolutely nothing to do with it. NuclearDem Jul 2013 #149

Major fail. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #150

Oh? What is going on here at DU? NuclearDem Jul 2013 #152

Hooooooly shit. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #158

We certainly did when that president was Dubya. Pholus Jul 2013 #210

No, we did not. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #211

A "blue pill" for me versus "kool aid" for thee.... Pholus Jul 2013 #213

it's en vogue for some clowns to equate us to nazis and worse these days, don't fret about it. dionysus Jul 2013 #166

Pass me some of that vino, Dionysus Hekate Jul 2013 #172

Well, I wish they'd hurry up and make up their minds. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #191

Mahalo for your OP, Hekate.. Too bad for the Cha Jul 2013 #175

We are no where near the USSR, but certainly not the best. roamer65 Jul 2013 #193

Yes. Ridiculous and offensive. NaturalHigh Jul 2013 #194

The Unfavorable Comparisons to the Soviet Union are Really Something On the Road Jul 2013 #208

True. ermoore Jul 2013 #214