General Discussion

xocet

(4,442 posts)

73. That is what I've been wondering, too...

Sun Jul 14, 2013, 04:24 PM

Jul 2013

SPECULATION:

This is an alternate theory for which there is no evidence of which I am aware:

Suppose that Zimmerman actually had his gun out, but (presuming that the gun has a safety) forgot to take off the safety. Trayvon approaches from a side from which he cannot see the gun and addresses Zimmerman. A verbal exchange ensues. Zimmerman turns and reveals and points the gun. Trayvon attempts to defend himself and takes Zimmerman to the ground while attempting to control the gun. Trayvon lands a few blows, but loses control of the weapon. Zimmerman takes off the safety and shoots - killing Trayvon. Zimmerman wipes the gun down to hide the fact that Trayvon had had to grasp the barrel to control it in Trayvon's attempt to defend himself.

Without a proper police investigation from the start, without any evidence from the gun, and without witnesses, none of this can be supported.

What I don't know among many things is whether Zimmerman's holster held his gun in place with a strap, whether Zimmerman's gun has a safety (all guns do, don't they?) and whether grasping a barrel/slide would leave enough DNA/fingerprints/palmprints to indicate that the gun had been grasped from the front.

Your question still remains though: how did Zimmerman successfully draw his weapon from a pinned position?

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So suppose a woman is walking alone along a dark road. [View all] DanTex Jul 2013 OP

Only if the person who gets shot is black. nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #1

Understand your point, but disagree lark Jul 2013 #28

+1 LiberalLoner Jul 2013 #131

More like "only if the person who does the shooting isn't black" muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #124

and the shooter is white. nt Deep13 Jul 2013 #126

I won't say "only" if the person is black but it's way more likely if the person is black. live love laugh Jul 2013 #127

If you live in Florida, madaboutharry Jul 2013 #2

Easy-peezey... ReRe Jul 2013 #75

Yeah but she was wearing a hoodie bluedeathray Jul 2013 #3

+1 uponit7771 Jul 2013 #6

There is a female equivalent, of course lolly Jul 2013 #112

Correct. Avalux Jul 2013 #4

Moral of the story - make sure you kill the kid, not just wound him VWolf Jul 2013 #133

Unlike reasonable states, a self defense claim does not have to be demonstrated by the defense Blackford Jul 2013 #5

TM had Z pinned and Z could not retreat according to eye witness testimony (John Good) dkf Jul 2013 #7

And the rapist in this hypothetical story is blinded and in extreme pain from being maced. DanTex Jul 2013 #8

What is the credible theory about how this woman would have killed him dkf Jul 2013 #9

There's no credible theory that TM was going to kill Zimmerman either. DanTex Jul 2013 #11

Witness testimony had TM pinning Z to the ground. dkf Jul 2013 #12

Z had minor injuries. He was in much better shape than had he been maced. DanTex Jul 2013 #17

Well that is the standard...beyond a reasonable doubt for conviction. dkf Jul 2013 #38

Yes, and by that standard, the hypothetical rapist would get off also. DanTex Jul 2013 #40

Apparently only if there are jurors who believe as you do. dkf Jul 2013 #46

No--only if there are laws written to shift the burden to the defense lolly Jul 2013 #113

He had 2 band aids on his head and never went to the hospital. mbperrin Jul 2013 #39

Sigh. Did anyone read the jury instructions? dkf Jul 2013 #41

Yes, I read the entire set. mbperrin Jul 2013 #98

Exactly... PsychGrad Jul 2013 #51

Childbirth is definitely more life-threatening. mbperrin Jul 2013 #99

He is that much of a coward laundry_queen Jul 2013 #116

Oh wow... PsychGrad Jul 2013 #119

Why would TM have Z DNA under his nails rl6214 Jul 2013 #120

The only injuries that required band aids were SCRATCHES mbperrin Jul 2013 #122

You're wrong, concrete can scratch rl6214 Jul 2013 #123

I poured concrete for a decade before I went into teaching. mbperrin Jul 2013 #125

Um... PsychGrad Jul 2013 #49

Why don't you provide any evidence John2 Jul 2013 #64

CDC: Traumatic Brain Injury dkf Jul 2013 #69

It's O.K., You Can Put Down That Bucket Of Water SoCalMusicLover Jul 2013 #82

I said about John2 Jul 2013 #83

I remember the Judge saying to the jury.. truth2power Jul 2013 #66

This the first time I have heard that Travon had injury to his knuckles. Please verify. olegramps Jul 2013 #71

See #8. You do not understand what "reasonable" means in law. cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #15

You seem to have trouble with the concept of "reasonable doubt". DanTex Jul 2013 #22

She saw his gun and went for it. John2 Jul 2013 #62

Your unreasonable risk assessments are irrelevant to the jury cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #13

good heaven05 Jul 2013 #29

If Zimmerman was pinned... ellisonz Jul 2013 #54

That is what I've been wondering, too... xocet Jul 2013 #73

Then how did Z get his gun? Sparkly Jul 2013 #93

The man would be convicted of murder in a heartbeat, under the SAME LAWS that acquitted Zimmerman cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #10

Not true at all. And who's stipulating assault? DanTex Jul 2013 #14

You think you have a point. You do not, in fact, have a point. cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #16

You think you have found a clever way to dodge my argument, but you have not. DanTex Jul 2013 #19

. Lurker Deluxe Jul 2013 #129

neither heaven05 Jul 2013 #30

Arguing legal issues with a non-lawyer COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #130

I agree Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #18

Yeah, but nobody was there to witness the man grabbing the woman first. DanTex Jul 2013 #20

True Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #25

I think if you claim self-defense, the burden of proof should shift, at least somewhat. DanTex Jul 2013 #26

Yes. This. lolly Jul 2013 #114

This is a double edged sword with unintended consequences Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #121

disingenuous heaven05 Jul 2013 #32

There is no doubt that Zimmerman killed Martin Art_from_Ark Jul 2013 #115

she would have no duty to run away in any state cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #24

Some states Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #27

A reasonable person would also assume that a teen alone in the dark ... Daalalou Jul 2013 #48

in the travon Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #103

Lack of evidence was indeed the issue, but that was almost wholly caused by the PD's Nay Jul 2013 #134

Dumb HockeyMom Jul 2013 #102

Was she wearing a "menacing" black hoodie and holding a can of ice tea in a "threatening" manner? nt MADem Jul 2013 #21

seriously, this case is a hideous precedent on so many levels. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #23

The Zimmerman apologists billh58 Jul 2013 #31

Well if something "good" comes out of this, at least it's waking people up to just how far the NRA DanTex Jul 2013 #33

This verdict was bullshit. smirkymonkey Jul 2013 #74

This is an interesting take on that: savalez Jul 2013 #34

Thanks for the link. That's basically what I was getting at. DanTex Jul 2013 #35

if he had posted a bit more of the article onenote Jul 2013 #88

According to Eugene Volokh, gun rights advocate and right-winger... DanTex Jul 2013 #90

Okay. Would the Connecticut Office of Legislative Research convince you? onenote Jul 2013 #91

If CA and WI have the same laws as FL, then I think those laws are bad as well. DanTex Jul 2013 #94

this law in florida removes any burden, they just have to say 'I was afraid for my life' pasto76 Jul 2013 #36

Wow. Not often that a lawyer publicly reveals himself to be a walking malpractice case onenote Jul 2013 #87

Yep. And this is the perfect way to commit First Degree Murder and kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #37

It's an extremely bad precedent. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #42

suppose the woman is only 600 yards from home hfojvt Jul 2013 #43

So this woman would want to lead this guy EC Jul 2013 #45

Embrace the gunner mindset HockeyMom Jul 2013 #47

easy enough to ditch them hfojvt Jul 2013 #50

You are right. polly7 Jul 2013 #56

Thank you! Daalalou Jul 2013 #57

excellent idea! 7962 Jul 2013 #80

A Black kid in a hoodie calling the cops? RC Jul 2013 #84

It would be a good place for somebody who wants EC Jul 2013 #44

That's exactly what the jury decided - bully protection. gtar100 Jul 2013 #52

Her FAULT if she wasn't ARMED HockeyMom Jul 2013 #53

And arming oneself with a sidewalk, like protect our future Jul 2013 #79

If someone fights you in self defense you can kill them and the law says YOU exercised self defense. Kablooie Jul 2013 #55

There is a duty to retreat in Florida under the facts of the hypothetical onenote Jul 2013 #70

Wrong charge 1Greensix Jul 2013 #58

+1 leftstreet Jul 2013 #68

Except what he was doing doesn't constitute stalking under FL law onenote Jul 2013 #78

You are mistaken onenote Jul 2013 #59

Good luck proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the rapist grabbed the woman first. DanTex Jul 2013 #60

Actually there would be evidence that the woman was grabbed. onenote Jul 2013 #67

Really? Evidence of who grabbed who first? Like some form of short-term carbon dating? DanTex Jul 2013 #81

Okay, I'll give you that point. Now care to respond to my other point? onenote Jul 2013 #86

The result would be different if the burden of proof shifted when claiming an affirmative defense. DanTex Jul 2013 #89

Other than Ohio, can you cite to any other states with such a burden of proof? onenote Jul 2013 #92

I don't know the exact laws in every state. Are you a criminal lawyer? DanTex Jul 2013 #95

I have practiced criminal law, although its not my principal area onenote Jul 2013 #96

OK. I'm not a lawyer, so I'll take your word on it. DanTex Jul 2013 #97

I didn't watch the trial in its entirety onenote Jul 2013 #100

Neither did I, but from what I've seen/read, I can't really argue that there wasn't reasonable doubt DanTex Jul 2013 #101

Done Lurker Deluxe Jul 2013 #132

Ooh, I like to play pretend. rrneck Jul 2013 #61

Lets be honest, because John2 Jul 2013 #76

I don't think there was a jury nullification. rrneck Jul 2013 #85

I think you nailed it. nt Ilsa Jul 2013 #63

White women, once they process what this verdict protect our future Jul 2013 #65

Uh, white woman here, in the know all along. I have been thinking today that we are all at greater WCLinolVir Jul 2013 #105

Very well said. I, too, am a white woman. protect our future Jul 2013 #107

intelligent white gals already know Skittles Jul 2013 #117

I should have been more specific. protect our future Jul 2013 #118

He can't stand his ground on her ground. ileus Jul 2013 #72

Silly. You left out the physical evidence that the woman had beaten up the tiny boy.... Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #77

Moral of the story-If you are being attacked and have an advantage follow through. WCLinolVir Jul 2013 #104

And if you fail to kill them, they can use the Zimmerman defense protect our future Jul 2013 #108

Yes they could, but wasn't that the point of your story? I could feasibly do the same. No witness, WCLinolVir Jul 2013 #109

I just wanted to make sure the meaning was clear. protect our future Jul 2013 #110

With the Stand Your Ground Law bloom Jul 2013 #106

I think the man would probably be guilty ctaylors6 Jul 2013 #111

This message was self-deleted by its author Tugboat Jul 2013 #128