General Discussion

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)

218. The documents

Mon Jul 15, 2013, 12:40 PM

Jul 2013

revealed so far are really nothing in the big picture. We already knew about the programs. Anyone paying attention did. They were just renewed in December. And that huge center in Utah hasn't been a secret.

It's what Greenwald said that's concerning for the future. And the timing of what was released, coming during talks with China, was damaging. And this coming during the Syria business, when we have to negotiate with Russia is really dangerous. It can't be shrugged off as nothing when we're talking life and death and chemical weapons and war in the ME.

But from another angle, if anyone thinks attitudes toward ordinary Americans abroad haven't changed, think again. These programs were approved by our elected officials. They've gone on for a long, long time. European countries do it, too, but their people don't know. So we're the bad guys. Again. Expect Americans abroad to be treated badly. All over the world.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

220 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Snowden Is No Traitor. What He EXPOSED Is What's TREASON. [View all] Octafish Jul 2013 OP

The Government Answers To The Oligarchs And Corporations - Not The People cantbeserious Jul 2013 #1

Pretty clear to me. nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #73

I'm so old I remember when one Party didn't. Octafish Jul 2013 #83

Peace and prosperity where? HumansAndResources Jul 2013 #180

JFK mentioned 'prosperity and peace' in his 1963 State of the Union address... Octafish Jul 2013 #205

He stole intel and ran to China and Russia. Bradley Manning didn't run NightWatcher Jul 2013 #2

Tell that to most of the world who are up in arms about it. It was new to them. Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #4

That's right, he "stole intel and ran." Never mind the wholesale domestic spying part. Right? PSPS Jul 2013 #7

it's a shame, dems backing extended surveillance on citizens. smh. all in the name of the party... allin99 Jul 2013 #203

Great To See The Blatant Acceptance Of Mass US Surveillance And The Desecration of The 4th Amendment cantbeserious Jul 2013 #13

I think you confuse an understanding of what the patriot act did Egnever Jul 2013 #91

We Will Have To Agree To Disagree - Thank You For Your Honesty cantbeserious Jul 2013 #116

This message was self-deleted by its author allin99 Jul 2013 #206

No, Manning got supermaxed. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #19

'Snowden is what the Government gets for failing to provide working whistleblowing pathways sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #45

Let's see, you got at least two of the talking points in your post.... Th1onein Jul 2013 #22

That's right. Tiny Bradley Manning, who knew full well what he would face DevonRex Jul 2013 #25

A gutless coward would have stayed on the job with Booz-Allen and kept snappyturtle Jul 2013 #30

A lying motherfucker went to work FOR BAH to commit espionage. Then DevonRex Jul 2013 #54

You must have been absent for the lesson on civil disccourse. nt snappyturtle Jul 2013 #70

Yeah, I said fuck that shit and said what I had to say the way I wanted to say it. DevonRex Jul 2013 #95

Like you, I was just stating my opinion. nt snappyturtle Jul 2013 #107

There's absolutely no evidence that he committed espionage. reusrename Jul 2013 #174

+1. Well said, snappyturtle. n/t Laelth Jul 2013 #57

Exactly......nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #76

Manning didn't have a chance to run. magellan Jul 2013 #46

Seems to be a lot of folks trusting the wrong people. Nt DevonRex Jul 2013 #56

Your opinion is noted. n/t magellan Jul 2013 #92

This message was self-deleted by its author magellan Jul 2013 #92

Like you, and the NSA. [n/t] Maedhros Jul 2013 #143

Explain your post. Now. nt DevonRex Jul 2013 #150

LOL, good luck with your orders there, tough guy. Marr Jul 2013 #182

LOL! I see you edited out "assholey top-spin." But it's all still there: DevonRex Jul 2013 #207

Yeah... I thought it was too rude, like the things you said up-thread to that other poster. Marr Jul 2013 #209

When i said explain your post now? or when i called snowden a lying motherfucker? DevonRex Jul 2013 #210

You trust the wrong people [n/a] Maedhros Jul 2013 #211

Ok. DevonRex Jul 2013 #216

I believe that any harm Snowden has caused Maedhros Jul 2013 #217

The documents DevonRex Jul 2013 #218

Our biggest problem in America is our citizens' collective disinterest Maedhros Jul 2013 #219

Manning is the reason for Snowden. Not a good idea to bring up Manning in this conversation. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #48

Sabrina, Snowden will be lucky not to wind up in a gulag or worse in Russia. nt DevonRex Jul 2013 #58

Why on earth would Russia do that? reusrename Jul 2013 #175

if it's all known and no big deal backwoodsbob Jul 2013 #52

How many people do you know who before Snowden even heard of NSA? Octafish Jul 2013 #86

None of us knew that NSA was collecting data on EVERYONE. None of us, leveymg Jul 2013 #102

Yikes I didn't realize so many were living like babes in the woods NightWatcher Jul 2013 #111

See.below leveymg Jul 2013 #195

Or unless you watched the movie "Top Secret: National Security Agency" bhikkhu Jul 2013 #114

Sorry but no, you just didnt care when it was revealed Egnever Jul 2013 #147

yep. nebenaube Jul 2013 #184

Many.inferred,nobody.could.prove.it. leveymg Jul 2013 #193

Snowden did make YOU "aware of anything that we didnt know was already happening" because you have rhett o rick Jul 2013 #149

he revealed that your country spies on my country and treats us Swagman Jul 2013 #161

Snowden published the Verizon warrant. reusrename Jul 2013 #176

Manning "Got Caught" - He did not announce what he had done. HumansAndResources Jul 2013 #181

Snowden is anti-America, an Obama hater, a disgrace, and a CRIMINAL THIEF Tx4obama Jul 2013 #3

Oh, yes. By all means, let's "arrest Snowden" and that will make domestic spying OK! Yeah! PSPS Jul 2013 #5

There is evidence that Snowden committed crimes and he has publically admitted it. Tx4obama Jul 2013 #8

Oh God, I know! He's so bad! We all like beging spied on! Right? PSPS Jul 2013 #12

What is your solution for discovering and investigating terrorists in the US? Zorro Jul 2013 #31

which terrorists are you talking about? frylock Jul 2013 #53

The kind that fly airplanes into buildings Zorro Jul 2013 #63

that could've been prevented without all this invasive surveillance.. frylock Jul 2013 #69

Investigations after the fact Zorro Jul 2013 #71

Thomas Drake disagrees with you.. frylock Jul 2013 #78

I see no disagreement with Drake Zorro Jul 2013 #94

you claim the nsa needs to collect massive amounts of meta-data to prevent such events.. frylock Jul 2013 #135

Drake says no such thing Zorro Jul 2013 #156

It is not an opinion on the collection of data by the NSA, they obtained the warrants Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #36

You're right, we can't hang the NSA Jack Rabbit Jul 2013 #16

"under current law" marions ghost Jul 2013 #89

Plus "He didn't get his pony." n/t AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #9

Great To See THe Blatant Disregard Of US Malfeasance And The Desecration Of The Constitution cantbeserious Jul 2013 #14

Wow, Tx4obama! WOW. Th1onein Jul 2013 #23

The 50s are over friend. That shit only plays in retirement homes. Nt galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #40

lol! frylock Jul 2013 #55

He did not bring harm to our country. Our country benefits from knowing the information totodeinhere Jul 2013 #49

I agree...+1. What some don't understand is that in the U.S. our allegiance is to snappyturtle Jul 2013 #90

Why does a Carlyle Group company have access to my communications? Octafish Jul 2013 #139

Who says they do? randome Jul 2013 #144

That's the point, isn't it? Octafish Jul 2013 #153

K&R MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #6

Branded. Octafish Jul 2013 #115

Huge K&R. Thank you. This is self-evident, woo me with science Jul 2013 #10

They pass a bunch of unconstitutional laws and then claim LuvNewcastle Jul 2013 #17

The actions of Snowden is unconscionable. When you spy and lie and this seems to fit his Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #42

It IS tyranny. Octafish Jul 2013 #160

It seems most Americans have lost sight of the context of democracy. Gregorian Jul 2013 #11

Wish I could K&R your reply....so, +1. nt snappyturtle Jul 2013 #35

Fools, indeed! n/t Laelth Jul 2013 #61

This is how it happened before. Enthusiast Jul 2013 #81

excellent post! Thank you. wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #134

Your name Samuel Adams? Octafish Jul 2013 #199

How dare you! You must be a racist/commie/hack! PSPS Jul 2013 #15

Thank you for reposting this. It is superb. woo me with science Jul 2013 #18

You forgot No. 15 - hueymahl Jul 2013 #32

And 16 hootinholler Jul 2013 #106

+1 leftstreet Jul 2013 #98

That IS a handy list. Here's what The Worshippers miss... Octafish Jul 2013 #201

Anyone notice how "rightie" isn't talking about this? 4dsc Jul 2013 #20

It is not just you...I noticed it too. zeemike Jul 2013 #38

Secret Government is an issue that cuts across ideological, party and class lines like nothing else. Octafish Jul 2013 #204

I can't take you serious anymore. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #21

I know! Who could ever object to being spied on by their own government! Right? PSPS Jul 2013 #24

That's ok, we haven't taken you seriously in a while. You or Dick Cheney. JoeyT Jul 2013 #39

Good one. n/t totodeinhere Jul 2013 #51

Just a bookend in Clapper's Library hootinholler Jul 2013 #26

You are most welcome, hootinholler! Octafish Jul 2013 #213

Thanks for that link! hootinholler Jul 2013 #214

Snowden is scum, Progressive dog Jul 2013 #27

Given how primed the tea party is for Snowden's actions, there is nothing I admire about him. SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #50

THIS is the point. Thank you, Octafish. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #28

+++++ marions ghost Jul 2013 #103

He going to be convicted as a traitor to his country MjolnirTime Jul 2013 #29

If that should happen, and I hope it doesn't because I regard Edward Snowden snappyturtle Jul 2013 #41

Well this will bring out the pro spying, US gov can do no wrong, attack the messeger, it's the law L0oniX Jul 2013 #33

That makes no sense. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #34

Nope he's a traitor.......eom 4bucksagallon Jul 2013 #37

A traitor to whom? The government? The U.S. Constitution? ??? nt snappyturtle Jul 2013 #60

here's a shocker; snowden comitted treason AND the NSA program is also treason pasto76 Jul 2013 #43

knr forestpath Jul 2013 #44

He's just a useful dupe for BushInc, Octafish. Sorry, but the 'coincidences' on the blm Jul 2013 #47

My Friend, where did I say Obama was no different than Bush? On this or any other thread? Octafish Jul 2013 #62

You're missing the boat on that one. DevonRex Jul 2013 #66

He didn't just expose US internal surveillance. He crossed the line into espionage pnwmom Jul 2013 #68

I didn't say you did. Others are. Lots of them. Many here at DU. blm Jul 2013 #82

BFEE Takes Charge: The Uses of 'Counter-Terrorism' Octafish Jul 2013 #123

We already KNEW about it years ago, Oct. Snowden isn't pointing one finger at BFEE - he's walking blm Jul 2013 #131

Absolute Pawns. Octafish Jul 2013 #197

Actually, Oct, Obama DID propose a budget requiring wealthy to pay more, requiring blm Jul 2013 #198

We* hear ya: ''ECHELON Today: The Evolution of an NSA Black Program'' Octafish Jul 2013 #212

You would have to completely ignore every step of the way he took. blm Jul 2013 #215

I've troubled that the roll-out of this story was really slick emulatorloo Jul 2013 #158

Still amazed that so many here can't see the level of slickness to the 'rollout' of blm Jul 2013 #188

Ironic that the ones who are pro-Snowden are being used by Bush Inc., the very DevonRex Jul 2013 #65

Honest question. Laelth Jul 2013 #67

No way. There's never been an outcome where Dems gained from being viewed as no different blm Jul 2013 #85

If Bush Inc. has little or no loyalty to the Republican Party ... Laelth Jul 2013 #88

They don't. They use the GOP as a vehicle. The Bushes are fascists - pure and simple. blm Jul 2013 #96

So Bush is behind the exposure of NSA secrets? felix_numinous Jul 2013 #208

Edward Snowden is an American hero, yes he is. another_liberal Jul 2013 #59

Disclosing classified national security information to foreign powers is treason. shawn703 Jul 2013 #64

No evidence of that propaganda talking point. It is all distraction from woo me with science Jul 2013 #72

Of course there is shawn703 Jul 2013 #118

What a slimy, disingenuous post. woo me with science Jul 2013 #127

From the articles shawn703 Jul 2013 #132

Disclosing criminal activity by governments woo me with science Jul 2013 #138

So you do support releasing NSI information to foreign governments? shawn703 Jul 2013 #140

No, that is absolutely false, woo me with science Jul 2013 #142

Read post #132 very carefully shawn703 Jul 2013 #145

I've noticed a tactic in the propaganda, woo me with science Jul 2013 #148

Again shawn703 Jul 2013 #152

Authoritarian governments always use laws about secrecy to defend abuses of power. woo me with science Jul 2013 #162

Interesting how you never address my point shawn703 Jul 2013 #164

No, I have explained why your "point" is invalid. nt woo me with science Jul 2013 #166

Just because you say so? shawn703 Jul 2013 #167

As usual, the vacant argument devolves into the laughing smilie. woo me with science Jul 2013 #168

There you go again shawn703 Jul 2013 #170

Totalitarian governments always use treason as an excuse to silence their critics. n/t totodeinhere Jul 2013 #79

Sometimes treason is just treason. n/t shawn703 Jul 2013 #120

Governments abusing secrecy laws to conceal crime and repression from the people is treason. n/t backscatter712 Jul 2013 #84

Revealing NSI information to foreign governments is treason. n/t shawn703 Jul 2013 #119

Kicked and Recommended! nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #74

K&R ReRe Jul 2013 #75

America's forefathers were most likely called traitors by the British AZ Progressive Jul 2013 #77

The Revolutionary Army were also called "cowards" and "Traitors"... bvar22 Jul 2013 #105

Great analogy. The statists/authoritarians are absolutely the new Royalists. hueymahl Jul 2013 #133

Purely projection in it's purest form, it's Ibsens ' An Enemy of the people ' orpupilofnature57 Jul 2013 #80

No. It's not a picture of a pipe. It's treason. Octafish Jul 2013 #87

It was treason in 2001-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-etc.... what NEW did Snowden reveal? blm Jul 2013 #97

Those things all sound scary :( NuclearDem Jul 2013 #100

Snowden's not scary - he's just been a useful tool for those who manipulated this outcome. blm Jul 2013 #101

Booz ALLEN & BUSH staybehinds!1111 bobduca Jul 2013 #104

Nope - I think it's Jeb2016 benefitting from the Obama is no different than Bush scenario. blm Jul 2013 #117

If you really want to know what he revealed and what is "new" bobduca Jul 2013 #122

Sorry, but, where have you been? blm Jul 2013 #136

If it's old news and it's still happening, what good did leaking it do the first time around? NuclearDem Jul 2013 #137

I'm not panicked about Snowden - he's just a dupe. Nothing unusual to me. blm Jul 2013 #141

I've reached the conclusion that ucrdem Jul 2013 #163

Ah yes, reason #1 bobduca Jul 2013 #146

I'm gonna have to update the Snowden Bashing Bingo cards! n/t backscatter712 Jul 2013 #172

Not bashing Snowden - he was just a useful dupe. blm Jul 2013 #187

Sorry to disappoint you but MANY of us here at DU knew this was going on and that blm Jul 2013 #186

But why didnt you all hold senate hearings on this issue? or write OpEds in major newspapers? bobduca Jul 2013 #192

That's the point I've been making. It was institutionalized by Congress in 2006 and blm Jul 2013 #202

Confirmation enough to draw out Clapper's Library hootinholler Jul 2013 #110

Nah - dissembling is nothing new here. blm Jul 2013 #113

This message was self-deleted by its author orpupilofnature57 Jul 2013 #99

I agree without those two there is no freedom, so I thank.... orpupilofnature57 Jul 2013 #109

Ed Snowden is Dick Cheney. baldguy Jul 2013 #108

Dick Cheney is Dick Cheney. NuclearDem Jul 2013 #121

Who's been threatening to release the identities of active intel agents? baldguy Jul 2013 #128

Ahahahahahahaha and the Manning leaks were going to get AMERICANS KILLED!!11 NuclearDem Jul 2013 #129

So, you're OK with Valerie Plame being outed by Dick Cheney? baldguy Jul 2013 #154

Dick Cheney outed Valerie Plame to punish her husband for his criticisms. NuclearDem Jul 2013 #155

Same thing. Snowden is Cheney. baldguy Jul 2013 #157

No it's not, and I just explained why it isn't. NuclearDem Jul 2013 #159

Running to foreign countries ant telling them details makes him a traitor liberal N proud Jul 2013 #112

Yeah. And Occupy is like a metastisizing mushroom that any day now will infect the world. randome Jul 2013 #124

Surreal Leolo Jul 2013 #125

Welcome to DU! NuclearDem Jul 2013 #126

what blatant criminality? Egnever Jul 2013 #151

Welcome to DU! Hydra Jul 2013 #171

k/r marmar Jul 2013 #130

Are patriotic slogans and cartoons all that's left of NSA-gate? ucrdem Jul 2013 #165

Taste has nothing to do with it. Octafish Jul 2013 #185

It's either taste or political preference and I hope it's not the latter. ucrdem Jul 2013 #191

Looks like the paranoid Right Wing nut jobs were right. RegexReader Jul 2013 #169

Welcome to DU! Hydra Jul 2013 #173

We've always been at war with Eastasia. Octafish Jul 2013 #178

Ya, we're so far down the rabbit hole it's not funny Hydra Jul 2013 #179

K & R AzDar Jul 2013 #177

yeah what gives. K&R nt limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #183

HUGE K & R !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #189

I agree Autumn Jul 2013 #190

agreed! nt G_j Jul 2013 #194

knr Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #196

K&R felix_numinous Jul 2013 #200

K & R Quantess Jul 2013 #220