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Igel

(37,501 posts)
23. So is the alternative.
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 02:27 PM
Jul 2013

It's no less silly.

So I don't know you. We meet, exchange words, and I throw a punch.

You respond with reasonably proportionate force. Now, you could leave, so you have no valid self-defense claim. But let's say you don't leave. We fight. That's okay. I assaulted you and there was a fist fight. Perhaps public disorder for both of us. Nobody dies. Bloody noses all around, perhaps. Perhaps one side wins.

If I escalate the force level to where you're reasonably in fear of your life and I've blocked your exit and you kill me you have a valid self-defense claim. Assuming that this can't be disproven. Okay. So far this is Florida. Or most states.

But what happens if instead you block my exit and escalate the level of force to where I'm reasonably in fear of my life but I don't return the same level of force? Now, you'd clearly be subject to sanctions. No self-defense claim, and it's going to manslaughter or 2nd murder. Still, you'd claim you're the victim and I'm the aggressor. The terms are a bit funny.

Under that last scenario, though, I have no valid self-defense claim. I threw the first punch--I am forever the aggressor. If I'm blocked and in fear for my life, even though at no point until then did I use lethal force or make you fear for your life, I'm still the aggressor. If I stop you by using lethal force, I'm the aggressor and have no self-defense claim.

Notice the asymmetry. You're punishing the person who started it and saying that under some circumstances his only choice is death or a murder charge. It doesn't matter who escalated the violence, who's in charge of the fight, who can escape. That first blow dictates guilt.

Nope. I've seen this scenario. My best friend snapped and if the floor he was pounding his brother's head against hadn't been carpeted hardwood over wood joists but instead vinyl on concrete or even a cast iron grate, he'd have killed his brother. The brother threw the first punch. It was the only punch he threw. A few minutes later his mother managed to stop it, but the kid was curled up, sobbing, clutching his head and moaning, "He was going to kill me."

Had my friend killed his brother, it would have been manslaughter or 2nd degree murder. He had an escape. He was in no reasonable fear of his life. He had escalated the violence to lethal force disproportionately. He had no escuse.

Had his reached out, grabbed a knife, and killed my best friend I'd have mourned my friend but said that his brother (a smart-ass pothead punk) was perfectly justified. It wasn't a fair fight--and the aggressor was clearly the victim after the first, oh, 3 seconds. The punk had no escape route, hadn't escalated the force, and was in more than reasonable fear for his life. He may have been an idiot--most 15-year-old boys are--but he didn't deserve the choice of being killed or facing murder charges for his one limp-wristed punch.

A bad case make bad law. Trying to punish a person by rewriting the law because an indecisive case isn't decided the way somebody prejudged it makes even worse law.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

"That's a recipe for mayhem" VWolf Jul 2013 #1
You insure all affirmative defenses shift part of the burden of proof to the defense. Blackford Jul 2013 #2
Who is "you" in your response? VWolf Jul 2013 #3
The courts, people, justice system, etc. n/t Blackford Jul 2013 #4
So, are we talking about passing new laws that compel VWolf Jul 2013 #6
No, you pass new laws that shift the burden of proof as I laid out. Blackford Jul 2013 #7
So, if the jury concludes that the state's version and the defendant's version are equally plausible onenote Jul 2013 #8
In that case Blackford Jul 2013 #10
No, in that case the defense has failed to prove its case by a preponderance of the evidence. onenote Jul 2013 #14
The you are saying the state proved it's case beyond a reasonable doubt Blackford Jul 2013 #15
Let's try again. onenote Jul 2013 #24
I apologize, I thought I was being clearer than I was Blackford Jul 2013 #25
BTW, if its impossible for the state to rebut a claim of self defense onenote Jul 2013 #9
Jury bias Blackford Jul 2013 #11
Yeap, hit a woman...get sprayed with mace....shoot the woman dead....claim self defense and.... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #5
With syg, you can't be doing anything illegal. Dash87 Jul 2013 #12
explain how one can hit someone first and still claim self defense? onenote Jul 2013 #13
Easy -- you do what Zimmerman did. stranger81 Jul 2013 #16
Where was the evidence that Zimmerman hit first? onenote Jul 2013 #18
Since no one but Martin and Zimmerman witnessed the start of the altercation, stranger81 Jul 2013 #21
And before you say there would have been marks on Martin if Z had gotten in a punch, stranger81 Jul 2013 #17
sounds like reasonable doubt then doesn't it? onenote Jul 2013 #19
No, it sounds like evidence undermining the defense's claim that Zimmerman could not have been stranger81 Jul 2013 #22
except for the part about the burden of proof being on the state not the defense onenote Jul 2013 #26
Who said anything about it being a tie? stranger81 Jul 2013 #27
Yes they could have. But did the prosecution even suggest that is what happened? Serious question onenote Jul 2013 #30
Wasn't that the whole point of putting Rachel Jeantel on the stand? stranger81 Jul 2013 #31
Assume, hypothetically for the moment, that it is in fact true that Zimmerman started the physical stranger81 Jul 2013 #29
How convenient... Pelican Jul 2013 #20
...NOT ... NOT if the person calls no joy and assumes "innocense" in Florida. uponit7771 Jul 2013 #33
So is the alternative. Igel Jul 2013 #23
I see your point. X can't kill Y because he X hit him first, however... DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #32
Other states do not protect an aggressor as FL does. And my state requires more than 6 people DeschutesRiver Jul 2013 #28
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