General Discussion

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)

50. Query re actual versus perceived danger.

Tue Jul 16, 2013, 11:59 PM

Jul 2013

You write:

SYG re-defined the entire idea of self defense in Florida.

The ACTUAL danger no longer matters.

I've never read the Florida laws, but the general rule of self-defense in U.S. jurisdictions, as I learned it before the first SYG law was passed, was that a defendant was privileged to use deadly force if he or she had an actual and reasonable belief that there was imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.

Actual danger wasn't a requirement. If someone pulls out a gun and announces he's going to kill you with it, you'd be privileged to shoot first. Even if it later turns out that he was bluffing you with an unloaded gun, so that there was no ACTUAL danger to you, you would still have a valid plea of self-defense, and you would deserve to be acquitted.

You seem to be implying that that was not the law in Florida before SYG. That seems implausible to me. Are you saying that, until the enactment of SYG, a defendant who shot a victim who was waving an unloaded gun would be convicted of homicide, even if the defendant didn't know that the gun was unloaded?

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Don't buy the spin. SYG had everything to do with Zimmerman's acquittal [View all] LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 OP

Well a juror said it did make a difference! It's the same propaganda controlling the Snowdon story SugarShack Jul 2013 #1

That was the entire point of my thread. SYG instructions OBLITERATE manslaughter laws. blm Jul 2013 #2

Yep. You got it. (nt) LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #3

Comparision LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #4

What about the victim? Historic NY Jul 2013 #6

Not in Florida (nt) LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #8

As we have seen the law gives rise to vigilante style Historic NY Jul 2013 #9

Yes...But not according to the jury Tippy Jul 2013 #12

Your point? Igel Jul 2013 #15

MY point is from a LE prospective ... Historic NY Jul 2013 #49

Absolutely true if Zimmerman initiated the physical violence... Pelican Jul 2013 #53

The jury was wrong! hrmjustin Jul 2013 #55

I'm surprised to learn that Florida has 6 person juries for felony cases. tanyev Jul 2013 #5

A NY felony trial jury 12 members and up to 6 alternates... Historic NY Jul 2013 #7

Connecticut I think does it too....along with sometimes Texas davidn3600 Jul 2013 #34

I've never heard of it in Texas. tanyev Jul 2013 #52

It's not spin. You're not understanding the law. DirkGently Jul 2013 #10

Except the jury hung their hats on the SYG instructions. Instructions that TRUMP the blm Jul 2013 #13

Please explain what you mean by that. DirkGently Jul 2013 #14

The jurors were given instructions on Stand your ground blm Jul 2013 #47

The defense didn't have to invoke SYG. It still applied. LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #17

You still have to argue it. Explain how / when that happened. DirkGently Jul 2013 #18

You are just wrong LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #21

No, dude, YOU are just wrong. Explain how SYG applied. DirkGently Jul 2013 #24

There was no SYG hearing LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #27

Your OP is that SYG had "everything to do with the acquittal." FALSE. DirkGently Jul 2013 #30

If not for the re-definition of self defense thanks to SYG, Zimmerman probably would be in prison LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #33

No. Any evidence countering Martin pinning Zimm would be huge. DirkGently Jul 2013 #46

Query re actual versus perceived danger. Jim Lane Jul 2013 #50

Actually, yes. There's a special hearing to determine if the defendant's actions are covered by SYG. X_Digger Jul 2013 #36

You are saying that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman? cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #11

Not saying that at all LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #16

I read the law before it was fashionable. I am a law-reader by nature. cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #19

Sigh. Read the jury instructions. LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #22

The Zimmerman apologists will not back down on this MattBaggins Jul 2013 #54

Maybe you should cite the language you're talking about. DirkGently Jul 2013 #20

You're not going to make any headway, I fear. COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #23

Jesus Christ, I swore I was done with this topic, but the ignorance burns. DirkGently Jul 2013 #25

I hear you loud and clear. COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #26

So, the instructions from the judge... LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #28

Regarding "duty to flee?" No. How do you think otherwise? DirkGently Jul 2013 #40

Maybe this will help clear up confusion ctaylors6 Jul 2013 #29

So, basically... LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #31

I think you've got it ctaylors6 Jul 2013 #39

No, it did not redefine anything. X_Digger Jul 2013 #42

I doubt Martin was on top of him the entire time, if ever LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #51

Without SYG, it would have been the exact same case. X_Digger Jul 2013 #56

Nicely put. But SYG deals only with the duty to flee, which did not arise. DirkGently Jul 2013 #32

It changed the case LuckyTheDog Jul 2013 #35

Arguments like what? DirkGently Jul 2013 #43

It seems to me that you're essentially arguing anomiep Jul 2013 #44

Elaborate Lurks Often Jul 2013 #45

I am totally confused about this SYG issue LittleBlue Jul 2013 #37

Not many folks around DU understand SYG. I'd suggest statute research, Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #38

There is an immunity element of SYG for both civil and criminal DirkGently Jul 2013 #41

For all Zimmy knew, those skittles were packed with explosives. BootinUp Jul 2013 #48