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onenote

(46,146 posts)
64. You are misunderstanding how the law works
Wed Jul 17, 2013, 12:21 PM
Jul 2013

The defendant who wants to raise self defense and have that defense heard by a jury has an initial "burden of production" (also known as the burden of "going forward&quot . That burden is pretty low, but it still has to be met. It can be met if there is evidence (which could be physical evidence, testimony from a third party or testimony from the defendant, and it can evidence submitted by either the prosecution or the defense) that, when assumed to be true and viewed in the light most favorable to the defendant would, in the court's judgment, allow a jury to find that the defendant had acted with a reasonable fear of imminent death or imminent great bodily harm.

A defendant that simply asks for the jury to be instructed on self defense but that neither puts in any evidence, or can cite to any evidence from which a jury could conclude it was self defense, won't get that instruction. Or if the only evidence that the defendant can cite is manifestly absurd, the judge need not necessarily allow the issue to go to the jury. It is sometimes a close call. For example, if a defendant admits shooting the victim while the victim was in a coma, and there is no other evidence from which a jury could conceivably conclude that a reasonable person would have feared immiment death or bodily harm from a person in a coma, the case won't go to the jury. But if the victim was merely sleeping and the defendant was in his or her own home and the defendant testified that the victim had threatened to kill the defendant before falling asleep and a gun was found in the victim's pocket, a court could and probably would allow the case to go the jury to decide whether, under those circumstances, it believed the defendant's version of events and whether it believed a reasonable person would have feared imminent death or bodily harm from an armed, but sleeping victim.


In my post I suggested that the burden of proof should remain on the state because no one should go to jail if it is equally likely that the evidence supports justification as not. Go back to my sleeping victim case. If the only evidence is that the victim had fallen asleep before threatening the defendant and it turned out the victim had a gun in his/her pocket, and the prosecution admitted those facts, but argued that, beyond any reasonable doubt no reasonable person would fear imminent harm from a sleeping person, the jury could legitimately decide that the prosecution had met its burden of proof and convict. Other facts might sway the jury to reach a different conclusion: if the defendant admitted that they were not aware that the victim had a gun in his/her pocket the outcome might be different than if the defendant argued that he/she knew about the gun and the prosecution could not convince the jury to disbelieve the defendant.

Self defense cases can be hard cases because there always is a subjective element and the evidence often consists of uncorroborated statements or conflicting witness accounts. Once there is evidence in the record that if assumed to be true would allow a fact finder to conclude the defendant acted with legitimate justification, it is not too much to ask that the state convince the jury that its version of what happened and what was reasonable under those circumstances is more plausible than the defendants version.

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0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe Zimmerman's account beyond a reasonable doubt. sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #1
Zimmerman didn't have to prove his account beyond a reasonable doubt, premium Jul 2013 #5
Its beyond a doubt that Zimmerman murdered the boy. Both sides admit it NoOneMan Jul 2013 #9
Believe it or not, the burden of proof is on the prosecution onenote Jul 2013 #11
That is, of course, bullshit cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #60
Except that killing someone is not always a crime hack89 Jul 2013 #71
bet would have been manslaughter or even 2nd degree if Z had murdered by beating to death T. Sunlei Jul 2013 #96
Of course - unless it only takes one blow it is hard to argue a thorough beating is self defense. hack89 Jul 2013 #97
That knife cuts both ways XemaSab Jul 2013 #133
Exactly the type of standard change which pipoman Jul 2013 #6
In the majority of states, the law is written so that if one claims 'self-defense' the sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #14
The D only has to prove enough facts to get it COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #17
That's the point.. low standard to claim 'self defense'. Then the P has sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #19
It's not proving a negative. It is up to the State COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #54
Don't always believe Wikipedia Morganfleeman Jul 2013 #31
That is no longer the case in America hack89 Jul 2013 #34
I assume this is a joke. cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #58
Sure, but it doesn't make Zimmerman's story any more believable. sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #61
Ohio's self defense law is the model. Dawson Leery Jul 2013 #2
+1 Just Saying Jul 2013 #8
The problem with putting the burden on the defendant by a preponderance onenote Jul 2013 #13
You're missing the point Just Saying Jul 2013 #42
You are misunderstanding how the law works onenote Jul 2013 #64
"The laws in FL and elsewhere give too much weight to a defendant's version of events." JVS Jul 2013 #22
If there's no weight on Z's version then he's guilty of murder. Just Saying Jul 2013 #47
You are wrong about Delaware. hack89 Jul 2013 #35
Someone posted about DE yesterday Just Saying Jul 2013 #38
Great thread, premium Jul 2013 #3
When a black man is dead, its easy to subjectively find fantasy as reasonable NoOneMan Jul 2013 #4
I believe in the constitution!!!!! Except when I don't. Nt galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #7
"scarier", "scarier", "frightening", and "nightmarish" Quantess Jul 2013 #10
Just a discussion pipoman Jul 2013 #136
Well said! Frytruk33 Jul 2013 #12
Self-defense should have a greater burden of proof Bettie Jul 2013 #15
agreed. DCBob Jul 2013 #23
In cases of "self defense" the "crime" has already been determined proven "beyond reasonable doubt". DCBob Jul 2013 #16
The burden of the State proving beyond a reasonable COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #20
yeah, and I think its wrong. DCBob Jul 2013 #21
If a woman has someone attempting Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #27
If her story is consistent and the evidence backs it up, then most likely she walks.. DCBob Jul 2013 #39
Not if you flip the burden, no. X_Digger Jul 2013 #48
I would say the victim wins.. DCBob Jul 2013 #55
"There is always evidence of some sort." -- this is a result of CSI / NCIS / Law & Order.. X_Digger Jul 2013 #56
Well in your attempted rape case described above there would have to be some evidence. DCBob Jul 2013 #62
"There would always be something" -- not true. X_Digger Jul 2013 #65
As I said I would rather just drop the burden of proof entirely.. DCBob Jul 2013 #67
That *is* a burden of proof (aka, "50%", "more likely than not", etc.) n/t X_Digger Jul 2013 #68
Drop the "beyond reasonble doubt" burden of proof. DCBob Jul 2013 #69
Even for a person who honestly defends themselves? X_Digger Jul 2013 #70
No... of course not.. and I doubt anyone would think that far ahead in situation like that. DCBob Jul 2013 #76
That's how our justice system works, generally. X_Digger Jul 2013 #80
I dont question that at all in a standard criminal case. DCBob Jul 2013 #82
Most cases are murky, that's what folks seem to not realize. X_Digger Jul 2013 #95
The concept of "beyond reasonable doubt" is not murky at all in normal crimnal cases. DCBob Jul 2013 #102
As a standard for *prosecution*? All good. For *defense*? Nope. X_Digger Jul 2013 #105
I think the Ohio model in cases of self defense make the most sense. DCBob Jul 2013 #116
And I don't. (and 49 other states agree) n/t X_Digger Jul 2013 #118
You forgot to mention the gun lobby also agrees with you. DCBob Jul 2013 #119
Okaaay... X_Digger Jul 2013 #121
Unfortunately alot of Democrats have been taken hostage by the gun lobby. DCBob Jul 2013 #122
That's a bit tinfoil-ish when we're talking laws anywhere from 40-120 years old. X_Digger Jul 2013 #123
You need to read more if you think the NRA hasnt affected self defense laws in this country.. DCBob Jul 2013 #124
Did you lose our train of thought? Re burden in proving self-defense? X_Digger Jul 2013 #125
I thought we were talking about how the NRA has affected self defense laws. DCBob Jul 2013 #127
Feel free to review this thread, from the OP down. X_Digger Jul 2013 #128
Not really interested in rehashing all that. DCBob Jul 2013 #131
That's a good argument against it. The other side of that is, date rape happens so often that stevenleser Jul 2013 #41
Her story doesn't have to be just plausible Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #46
I'm not advocating that standard. We're discussing 'better possible solutions' stevenleser Jul 2013 #50
In Ohio the standard for a defendant Just Saying Jul 2013 #52
I think Ohio has it right. DCBob Jul 2013 #63
You are mistaken about what the word "crime" means cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #114
No.. thats why I put it in quotes.. of course its not a crime until the case is determined.. DCBob Jul 2013 #117
Z got out of his truck and pursued... Punkingal Jul 2013 #18
I don't think the standards should be lower. I think there was no reasonable doubt in this case. redgreenandblue Jul 2013 #24
The problem is that people can be persecuted with the legal system NoOneMan Jul 2013 #28
Zimmerman killed Martin. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #25
He killed him. By the law, he didn't murder him. Dreamer Tatum Jul 2013 #57
Corey should have worked up, and then through, Manslaughter. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #81
As much crap as I may take for this, it was manslaughter, not murder. nt Dreamer Tatum Jul 2013 #87
"Democrats and liberals have historically held civil libertarian views." kenny blankenship Jul 2013 #26
This entire argument is a false dichotomy NoOneMan Jul 2013 #33
Who is making such a call? WinkyDink Jul 2013 #29
A miscarraige of justice is a poor reason to place the burden of proof on the defender. rrneck Jul 2013 #30
I agree pipoman Jul 2013 #113
tHis jury chose to ignore DNA evidence. displacedtexan Jul 2013 #32
Ignored what DNA evidence? ksoze Jul 2013 #36
Link? pipoman Jul 2013 #111
Here you go. displacedtexan Jul 2013 #120
As I read that I was thinking back 25 years pipoman Jul 2013 #130
Agree in general, but am open to the idea that in an affirmative defense, you have to prove what you stevenleser Jul 2013 #37
The problem, as noted above, is that if the burden is on the defendant onenote Jul 2013 #40
I think we are on the same page. I dont think the person trying to assert an affirmative defense has stevenleser Jul 2013 #44
What if it really was self defense but there are no witnesses? hack89 Jul 2013 #43
I don't think should be the same level of 'proof' the prosecution needs to meet to prove guilt. stevenleser Jul 2013 #45
I think the present standard is adequate hack89 Jul 2013 #49
I don't think that it is. I think the system doesn't deal with affirmative defenses well and not stevenleser Jul 2013 #51
In the absence of any evidence, the doubt needs to go to the accused. hack89 Jul 2013 #53
The "absence of evidence" is evidence in of itself. DCBob Jul 2013 #72
That makes no sense hack89 Jul 2013 #74
I didnt say it proved anything.. but its "evidence" to be considered. DCBob Jul 2013 #77
But then lack of evidence means automatic conviction hack89 Jul 2013 #78
Not necessarily.. its up to the jury to decide if it suggests guilt or not. DCBob Jul 2013 #79
The lack of any of George's DNA on Tray's hands is evidence that refutes DevonRex Jul 2013 #91
Lack of DNA is nowhere near the same as having DNA ksoze Jul 2013 #98
No. The pictures at the crime scene showed nothing on Trayvon's hands. DevonRex Jul 2013 #99
That's the problem. Those pictures should have shown bags on his hands ksoze Jul 2013 #100
Good grief. They take pictures before they put the bags on. I was in LE. DevonRex Jul 2013 #108
Easier said than done.. pipoman Jul 2013 #110
Motive helps that a lot. In Zimmerman's case, he clearly had it in for these 'others' who were stevenleser Jul 2013 #112
Maybe with a supporting witness or two.. pipoman Jul 2013 #132
He was his own worst witness with what he said to the 9/11 folks IMHO... stevenleser Jul 2013 #135
Not a lower standard mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #59
^^^ Best response ^^^^ etherealtruth Jul 2013 #66
thank mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #84
What exactly do you mean? onenote Jul 2013 #73
just what I said. mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #83
If you mean the prosecutions bar should be lower ksoze Jul 2013 #85
it is what mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #86
They are having a hard time with peoples opinions. Rex Jul 2013 #88
you get it. mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #90
Yeah and also, it is always just a handful of people. Rex Jul 2013 #109
probably mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #115
I read you are very confused, so you post anything vague ksoze Jul 2013 #94
I see you are pretending pipoman Jul 2013 #106
Unless the individual is part of the jury, what a person may or may not believe is hardly "scary" LanternWaste Jul 2013 #75
Great post. Rex Jul 2013 #89
So pointing out a fallacious opinion is rude? What's that make DU then? pipoman Jul 2013 #103
It is only a handful of people, nice try. Rex Jul 2013 #107
There was a time in the not too distant past that people pipoman Jul 2013 #104
The state should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you killed someone gollygee Jul 2013 #92
a civil case will have a much lower burden of proof. Sunlei Jul 2013 #93
reasonable doubt should not include believing ridiculous stories Skittles Jul 2013 #101
I haven't seen any H2O Man Jul 2013 #126
Absolutely right! markpkessinger Jul 2013 #129
Evidence has proved conclusively that people are wrongfully convicted of serious crimes Yo_Mama Jul 2013 #134
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