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DCBob

(24,689 posts)

67. As I said I would rather just drop the burden of proof entirely..

Reply to X_Digger (Reply #65)

Wed Jul 17, 2013, 12:26 PM

Jul 2013

and use the Ohio model.. "preponderance of evidence". I think that the best solution.

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All of the calls for a lower standard than "beyond a reasonable doubt" [View all] pipoman Jul 2013 OP

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe Zimmerman's account beyond a reasonable doubt. sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #1

Zimmerman didn't have to prove his account beyond a reasonable doubt, premium Jul 2013 #5

Its beyond a doubt that Zimmerman murdered the boy. Both sides admit it NoOneMan Jul 2013 #9

Believe it or not, the burden of proof is on the prosecution onenote Jul 2013 #11

That is, of course, bullshit cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #60

Except that killing someone is not always a crime hack89 Jul 2013 #71

bet would have been manslaughter or even 2nd degree if Z had murdered by beating to death T. Sunlei Jul 2013 #96

Of course - unless it only takes one blow it is hard to argue a thorough beating is self defense. hack89 Jul 2013 #97

That knife cuts both ways XemaSab Jul 2013 #133

Exactly the type of standard change which pipoman Jul 2013 #6

In the majority of states, the law is written so that if one claims 'self-defense' the sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #14

The D only has to prove enough facts to get it COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #17

That's the point.. low standard to claim 'self defense'. Then the P has sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #19

It's not proving a negative. It is up to the State COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #54

Don't always believe Wikipedia Morganfleeman Jul 2013 #31

That is no longer the case in America hack89 Jul 2013 #34

I assume this is a joke. cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #58

Sure, but it doesn't make Zimmerman's story any more believable. sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #61

Ohio's self defense law is the model. Dawson Leery Jul 2013 #2

+1 Just Saying Jul 2013 #8

The problem with putting the burden on the defendant by a preponderance onenote Jul 2013 #13

You're missing the point Just Saying Jul 2013 #42

You are misunderstanding how the law works onenote Jul 2013 #64

"The laws in FL and elsewhere give too much weight to a defendant's version of events." JVS Jul 2013 #22

If there's no weight on Z's version then he's guilty of murder. Just Saying Jul 2013 #47

You are wrong about Delaware. hack89 Jul 2013 #35

Someone posted about DE yesterday Just Saying Jul 2013 #38

Great thread, premium Jul 2013 #3

When a black man is dead, its easy to subjectively find fantasy as reasonable NoOneMan Jul 2013 #4

I believe in the constitution!!!!! Except when I don't. Nt galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #7

"scarier", "scarier", "frightening", and "nightmarish" Quantess Jul 2013 #10

Just a discussion pipoman Jul 2013 #136

Well said! Frytruk33 Jul 2013 #12

Self-defense should have a greater burden of proof Bettie Jul 2013 #15

agreed. DCBob Jul 2013 #23

In cases of "self defense" the "crime" has already been determined proven "beyond reasonable doubt". DCBob Jul 2013 #16

The burden of the State proving beyond a reasonable COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #20

yeah, and I think its wrong. DCBob Jul 2013 #21

If a woman has someone attempting Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #27

If her story is consistent and the evidence backs it up, then most likely she walks.. DCBob Jul 2013 #39

Not if you flip the burden, no. X_Digger Jul 2013 #48

I would say the victim wins.. DCBob Jul 2013 #55

"There is always evidence of some sort." -- this is a result of CSI / NCIS / Law & Order.. X_Digger Jul 2013 #56

Well in your attempted rape case described above there would have to be some evidence. DCBob Jul 2013 #62

"There would always be something" -- not true. X_Digger Jul 2013 #65

As I said I would rather just drop the burden of proof entirely.. DCBob Jul 2013 #67

That *is* a burden of proof (aka, "50%", "more likely than not", etc.) n/t X_Digger Jul 2013 #68

Drop the "beyond reasonble doubt" burden of proof. DCBob Jul 2013 #69

Even for a person who honestly defends themselves? X_Digger Jul 2013 #70

No... of course not.. and I doubt anyone would think that far ahead in situation like that. DCBob Jul 2013 #76

That's how our justice system works, generally. X_Digger Jul 2013 #80

I dont question that at all in a standard criminal case. DCBob Jul 2013 #82

Most cases are murky, that's what folks seem to not realize. X_Digger Jul 2013 #95

The concept of "beyond reasonable doubt" is not murky at all in normal crimnal cases. DCBob Jul 2013 #102

As a standard for *prosecution*? All good. For *defense*? Nope. X_Digger Jul 2013 #105

I think the Ohio model in cases of self defense make the most sense. DCBob Jul 2013 #116

And I don't. (and 49 other states agree) n/t X_Digger Jul 2013 #118

You forgot to mention the gun lobby also agrees with you. DCBob Jul 2013 #119

Okaaay... X_Digger Jul 2013 #121

Unfortunately alot of Democrats have been taken hostage by the gun lobby. DCBob Jul 2013 #122

That's a bit tinfoil-ish when we're talking laws anywhere from 40-120 years old. X_Digger Jul 2013 #123

You need to read more if you think the NRA hasnt affected self defense laws in this country.. DCBob Jul 2013 #124

Did you lose our train of thought? Re burden in proving self-defense? X_Digger Jul 2013 #125

I thought we were talking about how the NRA has affected self defense laws. DCBob Jul 2013 #127

Feel free to review this thread, from the OP down. X_Digger Jul 2013 #128

Not really interested in rehashing all that. DCBob Jul 2013 #131

That's a good argument against it. The other side of that is, date rape happens so often that stevenleser Jul 2013 #41

Her story doesn't have to be just plausible Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #46

I'm not advocating that standard. We're discussing 'better possible solutions' stevenleser Jul 2013 #50

In Ohio the standard for a defendant Just Saying Jul 2013 #52

I think Ohio has it right. DCBob Jul 2013 #63

You are mistaken about what the word "crime" means cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #114

No.. thats why I put it in quotes.. of course its not a crime until the case is determined.. DCBob Jul 2013 #117

Z got out of his truck and pursued... Punkingal Jul 2013 #18

I don't think the standards should be lower. I think there was no reasonable doubt in this case. redgreenandblue Jul 2013 #24

The problem is that people can be persecuted with the legal system NoOneMan Jul 2013 #28

Zimmerman killed Martin. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #25

He killed him. By the law, he didn't murder him. Dreamer Tatum Jul 2013 #57

Corey should have worked up, and then through, Manslaughter. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #81

As much crap as I may take for this, it was manslaughter, not murder. nt Dreamer Tatum Jul 2013 #87

"Democrats and liberals have historically held civil libertarian views." kenny blankenship Jul 2013 #26

This entire argument is a false dichotomy NoOneMan Jul 2013 #33

Who is making such a call? WinkyDink Jul 2013 #29

A miscarraige of justice is a poor reason to place the burden of proof on the defender. rrneck Jul 2013 #30

I agree pipoman Jul 2013 #113

tHis jury chose to ignore DNA evidence. displacedtexan Jul 2013 #32

Ignored what DNA evidence? ksoze Jul 2013 #36

Link? pipoman Jul 2013 #111

Here you go. displacedtexan Jul 2013 #120

As I read that I was thinking back 25 years pipoman Jul 2013 #130

Agree in general, but am open to the idea that in an affirmative defense, you have to prove what you stevenleser Jul 2013 #37

The problem, as noted above, is that if the burden is on the defendant onenote Jul 2013 #40

I think we are on the same page. I dont think the person trying to assert an affirmative defense has stevenleser Jul 2013 #44

What if it really was self defense but there are no witnesses? hack89 Jul 2013 #43

I don't think should be the same level of 'proof' the prosecution needs to meet to prove guilt. stevenleser Jul 2013 #45

I think the present standard is adequate hack89 Jul 2013 #49

I don't think that it is. I think the system doesn't deal with affirmative defenses well and not stevenleser Jul 2013 #51

In the absence of any evidence, the doubt needs to go to the accused. hack89 Jul 2013 #53

The "absence of evidence" is evidence in of itself. DCBob Jul 2013 #72

That makes no sense hack89 Jul 2013 #74

I didnt say it proved anything.. but its "evidence" to be considered. DCBob Jul 2013 #77

But then lack of evidence means automatic conviction hack89 Jul 2013 #78

Not necessarily.. its up to the jury to decide if it suggests guilt or not. DCBob Jul 2013 #79

The lack of any of George's DNA on Tray's hands is evidence that refutes DevonRex Jul 2013 #91

Lack of DNA is nowhere near the same as having DNA ksoze Jul 2013 #98

No. The pictures at the crime scene showed nothing on Trayvon's hands. DevonRex Jul 2013 #99

That's the problem. Those pictures should have shown bags on his hands ksoze Jul 2013 #100

Good grief. They take pictures before they put the bags on. I was in LE. DevonRex Jul 2013 #108

Easier said than done.. pipoman Jul 2013 #110

Motive helps that a lot. In Zimmerman's case, he clearly had it in for these 'others' who were stevenleser Jul 2013 #112

Maybe with a supporting witness or two.. pipoman Jul 2013 #132

He was his own worst witness with what he said to the 9/11 folks IMHO... stevenleser Jul 2013 #135

Not a lower standard mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #59

^^^ Best response ^^^^ etherealtruth Jul 2013 #66

thank mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #84

What exactly do you mean? onenote Jul 2013 #73

just what I said. mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #83

If you mean the prosecutions bar should be lower ksoze Jul 2013 #85

it is what mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #86

They are having a hard time with peoples opinions. Rex Jul 2013 #88

you get it. mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #90

Yeah and also, it is always just a handful of people. Rex Jul 2013 #109

probably mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #115

I read you are very confused, so you post anything vague ksoze Jul 2013 #94

I see you are pretending pipoman Jul 2013 #106

Unless the individual is part of the jury, what a person may or may not believe is hardly "scary" LanternWaste Jul 2013 #75

Great post. Rex Jul 2013 #89

So pointing out a fallacious opinion is rude? What's that make DU then? pipoman Jul 2013 #103

It is only a handful of people, nice try. Rex Jul 2013 #107

There was a time in the not too distant past that people pipoman Jul 2013 #104

The state should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you killed someone gollygee Jul 2013 #92

a civil case will have a much lower burden of proof. Sunlei Jul 2013 #93

reasonable doubt should not include believing ridiculous stories Skittles Jul 2013 #101

I haven't seen any H2O Man Jul 2013 #126

Absolutely right! markpkessinger Jul 2013 #129

Evidence has proved conclusively that people are wrongfully convicted of serious crimes Yo_Mama Jul 2013 #134